To dam the torrential rivers of blood and to silence the cacophony of their agonized cries….
Posted by thomaspainescorner on July 5, 2009
By Jason Miller
7/5/09
Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated, allied, aligned, or connected with the Transformative Studies Institute, the Institute for Critical Animal Studies, Anthony Nocella II, or Richard Kahn. While I am a press officer for the North American Animal Liberation Press Office and am an associate of Jerry Vlasak and Steve Best, I am penning this piece independently of NAALPO and all of my allies.
Years of introspection and profound soul searching—intrepidly trekking the seemingly infinite number of unexplored, untamed, thorny and treacherous paths winding circuitously through my psyche—led me to naively conclude that I’d sketched out a nearly complete map of who I am, my worldview, and my purpose.
Fortunately a chain of events that began unfolding several months ago, and recently culminated when I immersed myself in the company of some of the most dedicated, knowledgeable, and passionate animal activists with whom I’ve had the privilege to associate,[1] shattered my semi-complacency and ignited my passion to launch yet another thorough and harrowing examination of who I am and what I believe—a “revaluation of all values” if you will–including the inevitable significant growing pains of personal evolution. While I recognize that my core sense of self, general worldview, and essential beliefs are relatively immutable, there’s still plenty of room for discovery and growth.
Steve Best commented to me about a year ago that he wanted to make philosophy dangerous again. With that in mind, I’ve come to some radical conclusions about us humans and our largely reprehensible ways of being as a species. Indulge me as I “philosophize with a hammer,” driving home some ideologies, thoughts, observations, principles, and assertions that will bludgeon some of the sacred tenets of the anthropocentric Judeo-Christian status quo of Western Civilization, evoke the wrath of hardened speciesists who lash out like spoiled children when people challenge their “unassailable right” to torture, murder, and eat other sentient beings, and leave me about as popular as an agitated, unleashed pit bull at a Cat Fanciers’ Association show.
Despite the nearly unanimous anthropocentric belief that we human animals are superior to nonhuman animals, we are equal—AT BEST. In fact, our collective malevolence, greed, apathy, belligerence, arrogance, selfishness and tendency to dominate, exploit, and mutilate the Earth and its other inhabitants, have me convinced that we are inferior to other animals, both morally and, in a perverse way, intellectually. We’re just intelligent enough that we’ve developed a devastatingly destructive superiority complex, believing that our capacity to engage in complex forms of thought and communication endows us with the right to serially abuse the planet and other sentient beings, create artificial barriers to alienate us from the rest of nature, and to litter and contaminate the land-base and waterways with all manner of toxic, putrid, noxious, infectious, and disgusting liquids and solids, many with half-lives that exceed the 10,000 years that the disease we call civilization has existed. Homo sapiens, the “superior species,” has taken “stewardship” of the planet and is careening toward self-destruction and mass extinctions of other species. How intelligent is that?
Nonhuman animals are sentient, and an increasingly impressive body of peer-reviewed research scientifically legitimizes the empirical, common sense observations that many other animals are also ‘subjects of a life’ in that they lead relatively rich and complex intellectual, emotional, and social lives. Intentionally killing them is as much murder as it is to kill a human being. That’s right; I wrote it. “Meat” is murder. As are vivisection, fur, dog-fights, cock-fights, dairy and egg production, and the rest of the myriad monstrous atrocities committed by the animal industrial complex around the globe. While the consumers and end users are complicit, it is the shit-laden toilet of the speciesist capitalism system that we need to smash into a million shards of porcelain by wielding the most massive sledgehammer we can find.
To dam the torrential rivers of blood flowing from the veins of billions of slaughtered animals; to silence the cacophony of their agonized and pitiful moans, bleats, squeals, and shrieks; and to redeem ourselves for this seemingly endless holocaust, one of two things must happen. The human species has to become universally vegan. Or if our cravings for flesh consumption, our desires to wear the skin of another, our cowardly compulsions to stalk defenseless creatures and riddle them with bullets or pierce them with arrows, or our perceived need to subject other animals to heinous torture to “advance our science and medicine” are too strong to overcome, we need to put human flesh on the menu, stock the store shelves with shoes and coats fashioned of human skin, turn our hunting rifles on human targets, and fill our research laboratories with human subjects. After all, if we’re going to use, abuse, and slaughter sentient beings to please our palates, enhance our lives, and vivisect, in order to restore justice and to put an end to abject hypocrisy, we need to include our own species in these activities.
Destruction of property, equipment, buildings, machinery, laboratories, and virtually any inanimate human construct or “resource” used in the exploitation, oppression, maiming, raping, or murder of human animals, other animals, or the Earth is not violence. It may be illegal under a system that fetishizes property and profits, but it is not unethical. In fact, in many cases it is the right thing to do.
With respect to true violence–harming or killing sentient beings (hateful speciesists will, of course, limit the definition to human beings)—the corporatist state (of nearly any nation, as corporate capitalism is virtually ubiquitous) and its myriad components, agents, sycophants, agencies, bureaus, businesses, branches, soldiers, employees, propagandists, officers, blindly obeisant citizens, and their ilk are far and away the most egregious perpetrators of directly violent acts. In stark contrast, the animal liberation movement has committed no direct violence—not one human animal exploiter death to its credit. However, we as a movement are guilty of committing indirect violence in that our collective restraint in the face of the torture and murder of billions of other animals each year has enabled the unfathomably cruel direct violence of the corporatist state, the animal exploiting industries it supports, and the billions of relentless, hardened speciesist foot soldiers who are so anthropocentric that they grieve or pay respects when sociopaths like Harry Harlow, Philip Armour, Ray Kroc, and their ilk die while turning a blind eye to innocent raccoon dogs being skinned alive so that privileged humans can wear “fur.”
Philosophically speaking, the animal liberation movement needs to embrace ‘counter-violence to protect innocent beings’ as one of many tactics in the war to end the animal holocaust. Attacks on incorrigible, empathy-deficient, sociopathic speciesist animal torturers and murderers by courageous underground militants are both necessary and morally acceptable aspects of the fight to liberate nonhuman animals. From an ethical standpoint, such acts would be readily justifiable as a form of extensional self-defense on behalf of voiceless, defenseless sentient beings.
Given the opportunity and the means, nonhuman animals would obviously slay their tormentors and killers—be they ranchers, Big Ag executives, hunters, vivisectors, puppy mill operators, or the like. Just imagine how many billions of nonhuman animals would be spared at the cost of a relatively miniscule number of human lives if activists were to act as proxies in some instances and simply do that which nonhuman animals would do for themselves–if only they could. Once obtaining their bloody lucre or satiating their desires became too much of a risk, the players in the “exploitation game” would fold their hands and the industrialized carnage of nonhuman animals would come to a grinding halt.
While the corporatist state employs extreme levels of institutionalized violence to make profits, rape the Earth, and maintain social order, many oppose any counter-violence on the grounds that it is ineffective and that even limited use by a few activists turns public opinion against entire social movements. Yet there are no social justice victories in history that were won without violent tactics, even if such tactics played a small role. Nor did public disdain for the use of violence prevent movements like Abolitionism, Women’s Suffrage, Civil Rights, or Anti-Apartheid from succeeding.
Centralized governments, their closely aligned corporatist-capitalist entities, and all those around the globe who enable, perpetuate, or perpetrate wholesale, large-scale animal exploitation invite and deserve the enmity of those of us in the animal liberation movement. As ridiculously out-numbered as we are, and in light of the overwhelming power of our enemy, we need to confront this multi-headed hydra with as many tactics of asymmetrical engagement and with as much determination as we can muster, battling them within the framework of the inherently corrupt political and legal systems that are heavily stacked in the favor of anthropocentric murderers; struggling to educate and win the hearts and minds of the people whose empathy hasn’t been eradicated by the soul-murdering narcissism and consumerism of the dominant culture; allying ourselves with other anti-capitalist liberation movements; and undertaking various forms of direct action on behalf of the billions of nonhuman animals immiserated and annihilated by speciesist capitalism every year.
If the corporatists and their faithful flock can shoot, trap, slash, cage, enslave, cut, gut, slit, slaughter, butcher, burn, shock, inject, beat, stomp, rape, wear, eat, and brutally murder voiceless sentient beings, how can we anti-speciesists, in good conscience, allow them to operate unchallenged and with impunity? In light of the unimaginable horror, pain and suffering they’ve inflicted on nearly countless billions of our nonhuman animal friends, nothing our movement does to challenge, impede, harm, stop, or decommission either the system or individual animal exploiters could be morally reprehensible or excessive. We needn’t worry about maintaining the moral high ground. Dante wrote an unpublished addendum to the Inferno that includes a Tenth Circle–just for our opposition.
In the corporatist state’s legal system, which principally serves to protect profit and property, an activist who killed a factory “farmer,” a vivisector or a hunter would be punished as a murderer. Yet in the court of nature’s higher laws, those who didn’t engage in some form of activism (be it direct or indirect, violent or non-violent) to defend nonhuman animals would be tried as accomplices to murder.
Apathy is complicity. With whom do you want to ally? Thanatos or Gaia?
[1] Many to those of you with whom I socialized, exchanged ideas, and demonstrated at the Let Live Conference in Portland, Oregon from 6/26/09 to 6/28/09.
Jason Miller is a relentless anti-capitalist, vegan straight edge, animal liberationist, and press officer for the North American Animal Liberation Press Office. He is also the senior editor and founder of Thomas Paine’s Corner.
Thomas Paine’s Corner wants to periodically email you links to the most recent material and timeless classics available on our diverse and comprehensive site. If you would like to receive them, type “TPC subscription” in the subject line and send your email to willpowerful@hotmail.com
For the latest updates on the animal liberation movement, visit NAALPO at http://www.animalliberationpressoffice.org/
If you have a Facebook account, don’t forget to look up Thomas Paine’s Corner’s Facebook page via the “search” feature and become a fan.
And if you have a MySpace account, don’t forget to friend Thomas Paine’s Corner at www.myspace.com/anarchovegan
Watch the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4 and go vegan. Do it for your health, for nonhuman animals and for the Earth!

Camille Marino said
“We needn’t worry about maintaining the moral high ground.” – THANK YOU!
We need to make our own rules and play dirty.
The idea that animal rights advocates should tolerate and negotiate with sadistic speciesists is ludicrous. We’re talking about the purveyors of death. At best, we’re talking about apathetic selfish humans who regularly slobber over the corpses of holocaust victims on dining room tables. Of course, some are just so completely indoctrinated they don’t even realize they’re perpetuating unimaginable misery and horror. But, it’s really a negligible point — we could talk until we’re blue; THEY DON’T CARE!
I look at these pictures of the holocaust victims and their eyes penetrate my soul. Where is the ethical dilemma with neutralizing a sadistic tyrant to liberate and spare countless victims? The moral confusion eludes me.
I am so tired of people taking offense at mere words… words that I hope articulate the scope of the sadists’ despicable behaviors. Hell, I don’t even know that many words. Their repulsiveness reaches new heights every day.
And the incessant whining about property damage… there’s really only one thing to say: the genuinely brave freedom fighters have not yet killed a piece of human degradation…
I AM IN AWE OF THEIR RESTRAINT!!!
Camille Marino said
edit: please replace the word “degradation” with “degenerate” or “filth”. Thank you.
Zoe said
When your action causes a death, you please Thanatos.
Bea Elliott said
I AM IN AWE OF THEIR RESTRAINT!!!
…and ashamed of my own “patience”. Although I’m vocal – I can see as time progresses, a slow ostracization taking place amongst familiars who just refuse to see/know/think. But strangers (and children) are much easier to approach. And as “unknowns” neither risks “pride” in learning the truth.
As for the others, their shield of ignorance can’t last forever… If I must be “the enemy” – let me be a vocal one!
Wingnut said
Jason, Jason, Jason. What are we going to do with you. You play symphonies on heartstrings like a roto-tiller strums grass roots. Love with a pitch fork!
But you DID tell us early-on… that it was going to be a post like that.
But you still haven’t addressed my latest concern from the Garden of Eden thread… and until you do that, we can’t find a route to PEACEFUL solutions. That concern is… IS it “human nature” that humans are hungered and drawn-to the smell of cooking meat? If so, wouldn’t that be seen to be one of the biggest hurdles in finding PEACEFUL (and loving) solutions to the “whack ‘em and stack ‘em?”
You can stomp around and put on yet another Jason Miller fireworks show ALL YA WANT, and we’re all getting quite use-to seeing you do this. BUT… “we” (including you) must/should first research why humans are HEAVILY hunger-drawn to the smell of cooking meat. I hereby formally and publicly challenge you and other readers… to address this HUGE blockade to animal rights considerations.
There IS “the other reason” for killing animals… and that’s for sport and fun… the empowerment-over-nature thing. That’s blockade #2 to peaceful solutions. My plans are for free-range, open-to-public petting/feeding grounds (NOT zoos)… so that marveling-at and observation-of nature… is a daily self-satisfaction enjoyment for all citizens. This will also require that many land-gobblers relinquish their ownership/fencing of the lands needed for such things. The current owners would become, instead, the custodians of the nature reserve. But keep in mind, humans would NOT be leaving the animals “be”, they’d be instead in and amongst the animals… but not to harm, and not to “affect” too drastically. Affect WILL happen though, and it would be a major part of the research going-on in those un-reserved reserves. We really can’t box the animals in-to or out-of these areas, but we can stop those intent on doing harm. And we must learn that most, if not all animals, are not out to do harm to humans. But, some animals are meat-eaters… by their “nature”. Are humans such, as well?
So, Jason’s dog and pony show aside, can we now talk about actual practical solutions instead of talking about sledge-hammering things? Are humans natural meat-eaters, like many animals are? Are some of these corpse munchers just following their nature, and need not be blasted in the face with shotguns, quite unfairly? Humans are animals too, and if you’re going to bring out sledgehammers against THOSE meat-eaters, shouldn’t you be out killing ALL meat-eating animals while you’re in such an “attack the corpse-munchers” mood?
Don’t blow me off, Jason and Steve. Give us ALL your take on these things, and quit stomping around like some kind of soldier in the animal army. Your bloodboily fireworks show is getting very little done. Hows-about a tad less militant and a tad more scientist? Kenya?
warwak said
Hallelujah … Gaia all the way!
There are two kinds of people. There’s us and there’s them. They are the ignorant and apathetic. Not knowing (forgive them for they not know and educate them) is one thing; however, people knowing and not caring (not changing after education) places them in a special catagory for they refuse to follow their hearts (that DNA strand that makes us human – compassionate – worthy of life). This special grouping of them, surely deserves what ever they do to animals (I would like to say, “or worse” but what they do to animals is as bad as it gets).
Posers in positions of great power and responsibility must not be awarded a free ride at everyone else’s expense. They must be called out again and again for they are the true evil in the world for they possess the power to change for better. Far worse than any devil’s advocate/wingnut.
“The best jihad is when a person speaks the truth before a tyrant ruler.”
The Noble Hadith (sayings and doings of the prophet Muhammad, PBUH)
Ba‘al Zebûb Obama hears us
gina maltese said
I am at the end of my rope with most of humankind.
I have watched them stand to defend, propety and laws and the trecherous unfeeling humans that carry out deplorable actions on the most intelligent and true of all living entities.
They take a stance that the very people which act in the kindest of nature to defend the helpless are “hurting the way of life” of the unscrupulous murders, & somewhere in thier unfeeling, brainwashed minds believe that conformity & kindness is what will put an end to the massacre that endlessly contiues
I too am in awe of the restraint and apauled by the indifference of all that live by what is consisered “normal”.
robert said
You MUST not lower yourself to violence,in the traditional sense.
Ivor Hughes said
Jason .. I am a second world war slum boy with a State Education. I also served for 9 years with the military colors .. as an underpaid security guard for big oil .. you my friend have a whiff of money and privilege about you.
Why am I left feeling like a Palestinian in Gaza? ..
I should not have to remind anyone that for thousands of years illiterate peasants of every nation have been herded like cattle by the clever ones .. but we were taught to read and write and eager young minds absorbing the State View of everything.
We peasants are taught to know our place .. the security forces shoot us down like dogs whilst the military does the same in other peoples countries .. Is that the peoples fault?
Meat eating is a very deep seated cultural entity .. its a massive industry .. a lot of people live from it. Yes I know .. filthy beasts etc etc .. But the military is even bigger business ..they deal in slaughtering the herded masses .. daily we see laws passed to enable that slaughter .. common sense and humanity slaughtered by Lawyers for the clever people.
I saw some sickening sights, and just as gory as the animal photo,s .. one erects a psychic shell around such matters .. rather like a cyst in the brain feeding from the soul .. and sooner or later the cyst bursts .. then come the nightmares.
When that happened for me, I was fortunate for I had already started to get a grip on the real story .. so I did not go down into insanity .. like those whose minds were locked in multiple feedback loops of cognitive dissonance that was fed to them like sugar water to bees.
To stop the killing we need another way of learning, perhaps similar to what Ivan Illich posited in his book ‘Deschooling Society’ .. If one wishes to eliminate an injustice or cruelty then how can one do that by perpetuating it?. Its not that I disagree with the aims of the animal liberationists .. just in the manner in which they hope to bring it about ..
Some of the pain that I feel from contributors is expressed in anger .. a sort of moral fundamentalism that insists on kicking people in the head
ITS NOT THE PEOPLE ..DAMMIT!!
Because when I am kicked in the head and insulted it produces anger and resistance .. not the white light of liberation unless in death .. so what the game ladies and gentlemen?
SexyVegan said
Hi Jason,
Thank you for sharing your essay. It’s clear that you’ve put a lot of thought into expressing how and what you feel and believe.
I’m not intending my words to be an attack on you personally, so I ask you to please not take them personally. Even if I were to ideologically believe in the same ’solution’ as you (the formation of a counter violence-committing underground group), I believe that practically and realistically, today, and for the foreseeable future, this idea would be a complete and utter failure in achieving the goals that I believe you envision for the animals.
In this day and age, with the sophistication of technology at the hands of law enforcement and with social awareness and public opinion as it stands today and for many, many, many years to come, I am convinced that such an underground group, in order to achieve the goals you infer (widespread animal liberation), would require tens if not hundreds of thousands of unequivocally committed and exceptionally capable members.
How many people do you REALISTICALLY believe can be convinced to become members to have a group large enough to accomplish your perceived goal?
Thank you in advance for helping me to understand your position better.
Glenn said
Ivor,
You are correct in more ways than one.
I too despise the factory farms, the needless suffering and the casual brutality the current system perpetuates.
But at the risk of being labeled “speciesist”, I have to admit that I can’t get too upset over the plight of chickens or cows while men, women and children are being starved to death in Gaza, while Iraqis – and soon Iranians – suffer and die for the greater glory of Zion and bigger profits for those who are already ridiculously wealthy and while basic human rights are ignored for convenience and political positioning.
Now Mr. Miller, whose writing I generally very much enjoy, exhorts me to bash in the head of the poor stupid brainwashed dupe who enjoys the taste of his psuedo-McFood as he tries hard not to worry about whether he’ll still have a job and a place to live in a couple months.
Sorry, Veggies, but it seems you’re unable to see the forest through the trees. If you really equate killing a mouse in my basement or a rabbit in my garden with dropping cluster bombs on Bahgdad or white phosphorus on Gaza then your fundamental priorities are so far removed from mainstream humanity that you really need to start all over again.
Life is possible only because of death and death is the inevitable end of all life. It is both inane and insane to use violence to protect the “rights” of non-humans while ignoring or even applauding and profiting from the robbery, rape, and murder of your own kind. I can guaruntee that the chicken, cow, whale or even chimpanzee would NOT do the same for you.
We Neanderthal meat-eaters don’t “riddle” the prey with bullets to wave our dicks at mother nature and feel superior to the animal. We kill as quickly and cleanly as we can because that’s how momma made us and we are grateful to her and to the prey for what we are and what we receive.
And, finally, I must warn you militant veggies that if you insist on being violent toward me because you dislike my dietary choices, I will defend myself and my friends, both biped and quadraped, and my property (and YES, since it comes to me from MY labor, it is MINE). I don’t like violence, but I’ve had a considerable amount of training and practice in it and I suspect I’m somewhat better at it than you are.
Can we PLEASE try to find some common ground before we start killing one another and blowing sh*t up?
Or will this comment simply disappear as well?
Judith said
Glenn, we are all allowed to choose our own battles. And this is the battle, that we are fighting for..Blood will continue to run until our Revolution will do what it must. Laws will be broken.
There will be blood in the streets. Revolutions are painful and many get harmed in the process. But if that scares you just read all about ours and The French Revolution…It presents itself just like Blueprint, map and anything else.. I miss you Dave…Fantastic article…
Glenn, you’re no more than a corpse muncher, turning your body in to a graveyard..Quit being a naughty little bully…Go home…
warwak said
Glen Campbell wrote, “Sorry, Veggies, but it seems you’re unable to see the forest through the trees. If you really equate killing a mouse in my basement or a rabbit in my garden with dropping cluster bombs on Bahgdad or white phosphorus on Gaza then your fundamental priorities are so far removed from mainstream humanity that you really need to start all over again”
Vegans attack the root cause of most of our problems … war being a biggie. War is not vegan. You only offer Band-Aid observations where as, vegans see the forest through the trees and appreciate it instead of chopping it down for grazing land for future hamburgers.
Ivor Hughes said
Well who is responsible for this total rape of the planet? Who was it that set this nightmare in train and why was it done?
Because it certainly was not the people .. standing in a Salvation Army Bread queue .. is that the fault of the receiver? Who and for what reason was this monstrous system of cheap food set up? .. who has profited? it most certainly was not the brainwashed masses.
One cannot stop killing by killing, anyone remember these immortal words .. ‘We had to destroy the village to save it’ .. oxymorons (cognitive dissonance) produces morons.
Education and not a primitive Tribulation is what is required if this whole rotten mess is to be balanced out.
Aragorn23 said
@Wingnut: Biologically, human beings are almost certainly *herbivorous*.
This makes immediate intuitive sense if you consider our closest evolutionary ancestors, but it also has a sound scientific basis (which is why dietary studies always come to the same conclusion: a vegan diet is associated with longer lifespan and lower incidence of dread illnesses).
Here’s some reading on the subject:
http://veganmaster.blogspot.com/2008/07/you-are-biological-herbivore.html
http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html
Wingnut said
Thanks Aragorn23… good references… very informative and they have seemingly good science that’s explained well. Unfortunately, none of it talked about the observed draw of humans to the smell of cooking meat. Blaming a seen phenomena on “its human nature” is a much too easy scapegoat and handwashing, so I tend to shy away from such things. But, CAN a draw and hungering based upon smell… BE a learned behavior (opposite of human nature)? I just can’t see how. Not yet, anyway. And the smell-draw is not just a mild pull, it is a cattle-stampede-grade draw. Without getting past the smell-draw phenomena, its going to be a terribly difficult go-vegan trail, both for myself and others. That’s why I asked in another thread… whether vegans “outgrow” that draw, or is it still experienced by long-running vegans. And another question might be… can we make a vegan stir-fry that can generate that same smell-draw, and thus “replace” the cooking meat smell-draw. Smells tend to have a mental vision associated with them, and had we/people never smelled cooking meat and seeked to learn what/where that smell came from… then what? The phenomena SEEMS and SOUNDS to be a bit like sex and/or crack cocaine… where… once its done the FIRST time, the addiction could be there for life. And then one could ponder whether or not “trying things” is human nature. It all just gets more complicated with every step of my investigation/research… and I’m not qualified for this level of science.
MEAN-time, vegan activists concentrating efforts upon human meat-eaters and not equally attacking animal meat-eaters… is still an open issue, too. Discriminatory?
Excellent comments, posters. It appears that I’m not the only one who thinks some people around here should calm their bloodboil and try a new approach vector. Thanks again for the tantrum-less info/refs, Aragorn!
Aragorn23 said
@Wingnut: Hmmm…I’m not sure the draw to cooking meat you describe is universal, or nearly as intensely felt by most as it ostensibly is by you.
However, whether or not we are drawn to certain things is inconsequential. A child molester could describe how drawn they were to sexual encounters with children, even using a defense drawn from biology that looks at the occurrence of such behaviors in the primate world, and yet we would not accept this defense for a second.
I get your point about association though – the reason a barbecue smells abominable to me and wonderful to you is precisely because of the associations we have with burning meat. In my experience, deconditioning *is* quick and easy. Just stop consuming animal products and your cravings and associations shift dramatically, without much need for vegan stir-fries (although soy products can sometimes be nice).
I’m not following your objection to vegan activists concentrating on human meat-eaters and not on animal meat-eaters. If I understand what you mean by these terms, my response is simply:
A) Veganism (in the manner we’re discussing it) is an ethical argument posed to humans, i.e beings that share compatible ethical frameworks. It does not follow from the foundations on which this argument is built that we have license to intervene in the eating habits of non-human animals.
B) Non-human animals eat according to biological necessity, not whim / ‘tradition’.
Bea Elliott said
Glenn, yes you are right that all things die – But what you’re talking about is killing. I’m always amazed at how difficult it is for non-vegans to call this process of slaughtering animals for food “killing”. People who eat meat must at least own this word – for this is truth.
And you do use a sorry excuse to not help innocent victims… because “they would NOT do the same for you.” I don’t want to argue the point that there are many instances where animals defend humans – (and there are)… But instead say that it does not matter. So what that they would not help me? So what??? Is everything decent and responsible done in life… done for a goodie badge reward? And I’m not all that certain, if I’m vocal for the child, the senior, the mentally inept, or the religiously persecuted person… that any would “do the same for me”… Your reasoning, to only advocate for some — in order to insure reciprocal protection… sounds like it would lead to the kind of exploitive world that we have now. No thanks.
And further, if you believe the killing for your meat happens “cleanly” you haven’t read or seen enough. You must look with eyes that ask – “How would I feel if I were in the position of this being?” You cannot stand outside of pain or suffering and expect to know it… Empathy requires participation of the senses and the emotions.
Your meat indeed does come from extreme torture — Willful and deliberate torture that is entirely unnecessary. And I have had these words… met with violence towards me for the speaking of them. MINE & MY property and person attacked for vocalizing the truth… And where is my vindicator?
Glenn said
Bea, I am well aware of what happens in modern industrial meat production. That is one of the reasons I eat far, far less meat than I did formerly. Now when I want meat I go to a local butcher and I know the beef was raised locally by more traditional methods. Not perfect, but much better than the factories. You can tell the difference in taste. I agree that modern factory farming constitutes willful and deliberate torture that is entirely unnecessary.
I was, in fact, referring to hunting and the natural relationship between man and domesticated animal. The love and respect for the animals that provide us sustenance is something we “civilized” humans are supposed to have forgotten, left in the distant past of superstition and replaced with “scientific efficiency”. It is this lack of empathy, gratitude and respect that has allowed homo sapiens sapiens to become the biggest bunch of killers on the planet, even of our own kind.
We can’t get that love and respect back through advocating less of it. I am sorry that you were attacked. If I had been there I would have attempted to aid you (assuming, of course, that you were indeed the object of an unprovoked attack while behaving in a non-violent manner and respecting the property rights of others).
Some people are simply mean/evil. Some animals too. (Wolverines and/or badgers will occassionally gain access to a pen of domestic animals – chickens usually though it has happened with goats to my certain knowledge – and kill as many as they are able apparently out of sheer enjoyment of the slaughter) Generally, we cannot stop evil with more evil just as starting a fire is usually not an effective means of stopping a fire. The exceptions are obvious in the latter, but much harder to discern in the former.
Bea Elliott said
Glenn… I take it that your position is that you are “honoring” or “respecting” the life you take? I do suggest researching what these words really mean: both indicate holding something in “esteem”. There is no “esteem” in the rape, ravage or murder that “food” animals endure. It is an oxymoron.
And in regards to an individual who is forced, by no other choice of “sustenance”, who must kill for survival – of course I cannot fault any who would do such. But… is this hunter driving to his hunting ground? Is he carrying a cell phone, ipod, spotting scope, gps… high powered rifle? This is hardly “sustenance”… but rather “recreation”. It is the thrill of the kill that spurs him… not the “need” of flesh for survival.
And here are the details of my attack:
http://beaelliott.blogspot.com/2009/06/meat-eater-violence-to-vegan-animal.html
Of course if someone did not like my message I suppose the assault could be deemed as “provoked”…depending on who tells the tale.
And lastly, it’s pointless to justify malicious human acts by comparing them to other animals. While we do share the most important similarity, (that we all can suffer) – they do not have the capabilities of choosing to not harm others… Wolverines and/or badgers (or lions, bears, etc.) may not always kill for food – However, I’m sure instinctually they are practicing and perfecting skills they need to survive. It is not “recreation”… without purpose.
Aragorn23 said
@Glen: I’m confused by the perennial assertion that animal rights activists exclude humans from their ethical considerations. As an active member of several local AR / vegan groups, my observation has been that the average animal rights person is usually *more* literate and actively involved in social justice and environmental preservation issues than their detractors are.
In fact, you’re just as likely to see people opposed to animal exploitation at a Free Aung San Suu Kyi rally as you are at a SHAC demo or a tree-sit. That’s because most of us recognise that animal rights is merely the logical extension of our ethics past an arbitrarily constructed species barrier that modern life sciences and philosophy have rendered increasingly porous. It’s also because abolitionist animal rights is a very logical approach to halting the decimation of the world we all share, something with obvious negative implications for all beings, human OR non-human.
Reading through the entries on this site exemplifies the inclusiveness of what we could term our ‘one struggle’.
Glenn said
I do not assert that ARAs exclude humans. I simply wonder why so many of them seem to get more worked up about the horrible living conditions of chickens than the deliberate and systematic degradation and murder of humans.
No matter how hard you try, you will never get a majority to stop eating meat in your lifetime. But you could very well improve and save a lot of lives in Iraq, Afghanistan and Gaza if you directed that passion, commitment and, in Mr. Miller’s case, writing talent at those causes instead.
As an aside, regarding the smell of cooking meat – quite a few years ago, when I was more easily duped, my rich and arrogant uncle sent me to an unpleasant place to assist the locals in a disagreement they were having with some neighbors.
To this day the smell of un-marinated, un-sauced pork ribs on the grill nauseates me and provokes a minor fight-or-flight threat response.
Bea Elliott said
Glenn “I simply wonder why so many of them seem to get more worked up about the horrible living conditions of chickens than the deliberate and systematic degradation and murder of humans.”
This is an easy one!
If one can decrease suffering… simply by *not* doing something – it’s a no-brainer. If one really wishes to help animals -they need not become AR activists, or campaign against zoos, or picket at the circus… or even adopt a pet from a shelter. None of this is required to do the very least in preventing needless suffering to animals. Simply not eating them works wonders!
And you also (wrongly) assume that many AR advocates don’t also dedicate alot of energy and passion into human rights causes… They are in essence – one and the same. But I think striking at the roots of oppression: animal slavery… addresses all other forms of exploitation.
If society can respect the rights of a bird – to be a bird for it’s own purpose… surely, that same society could never justify conquering or imprisoning other humans. Defeat the one inconsistency… and they all will topple.
Camille Marino said
Wingnut makes the original and compelling argument that perhaps vegans should dispense with compassion and reason and adopt those survival instincts inherent in other species:
“MEAN-time, vegan activists concentrating efforts upon human meat-eaters and not equally attacking animal meat-eaters… is still an open issue, too. Discriminatory?”
Well, the more I think about it, the more I think you’re on to something…
Rattlesnakes have been known to eat their offspring that don’t survive; humans can eat aborted fetuses and still births.
Some rats kill their young and eat them; maybe if Casey Anthony had eaten Caylee, she wouldn’t be in prison.
A lot of species simply kill the weaker members of their species to exert dominance; right up our alley.
Nonhuman males of several species will murder the babies so that they can mate with the female; we have plenty of human men who need a date.
And, of course, black widows who eat their mates after mating; it sure is more genuine than the “oh baby, you were great” human response!
The Dude said
You people are so fucking confused!!! You need lives. YOU WILL NEVER EVER HAVE ANIMAL RIGHTS UNTIL YOU HAVE TRUE RIGHTS FOR REOPLE> Are the animals any worse off than us? We are all living the nightmare. WAKE UP THE PEOPLE AND THE ANIMALS WILL FOLLOW.
Camille Marino said
Dude says: “Are the animals any worse off then us?”
Yes, dude, they are:
Every year, over 10 billion animals are brutally murdered in the U.S. alone just so that their corpses can be fed to a salivating society disgustingly addicted to death. Ise Koch made ornaments & lampshades from the flesh of the Buchenwald prisoners. Ed Gein wore the flesh of the women he murdered and cannibalized… kind of a necrophiliac transvestite. And over 90% of Americans are chomping on the corpses of crucified nonhuman individuals, wearing their skins and adorning their homes with processed body parts. Damn, unless you specifically buy vegan products, you probably bathe in slaughterhouse renderings. WTF is the difference between Ise Koch, Ed Gein, the typical American corpse-muncher, and Barack & Michele Obama? Nothing! except… Barack Obama is comparable to Hitler! (Does that make FLOTUS comparable to Eva Braun or Heinrich Himmler… not sure, but I’m leaning more toward the architect than Eva.)
And that’s only factory farming.
Bea Elliott said
Dude… We will never, ever have rights for humans unless and until we have rights for animals. Strike at the root of exploitation! If we can recognize that the lowliest being has — at the very least the “right” to exist for his/her own sake, of course human rights will follow. Hierarchy and domination over “lesser” others is what creates a system where “might makes right”. No animal, human or nonhuman, is spared from this kind of injustice.
If billions of innocent beings can be butchered for no other reason than the tastiness of their flesh – We’re not too far from rationalizing “slave labor”, merely because it provides us with goods at a cheaper cost. All exploitation begins with power… Look to the meekest; protect them from that power and you protect all from it.
Wingnut said
Hi again, thanks for the responses.
#18 – First, I did NOT say that vegan activists should dispense with compassion. I actually want it to go the OTHER way, and for SOME of them to get LESS militant and more scientific.
Camille, you only talked about animals eating their young. I’m talking about cats eating mice, and big cats eating humans or damned near anything else that had blood and moved. How in the heck did you get welded onto eating of same species?
My question is… Why should semi-violent vegan activists go after meat-eating humans and not go after meat-eating OTHER animals? If vegan activists are non-discriminating, shouldn’t they try to convert lions and similar carnivores… into being vegan? Do we see ALF attacks on lion’s dens? No. Why not? If vegan activists are going to attack carnivores, shouldn’t they attack the very carnivores that they seek to protect… and face-up to THAT blatant contradiction in purpose? *shrug*
Thanks again for all the responses from/to all the perspectives. I learn bunchezzzz from discussions like these.
Aragorn23 said
I thought #15 addressed that?
Wingnut said
It did, Aragorn, and thanks. I was repeating/clarifying my concerns… for Camille. I also wanted even more views/opinions. Thanks for your views on that, though.
Camille Marino said
Wingnut,
You’re trying to make arbitrary distinctions that cloud the issue.
You can either say that non-human animals should conduct themselves in an ethical manner and extend our circle of compassion to all living things…
or
You can say that nonhuman animals function based upon their survival instincts, so why can’t humans?
You can’t pick and choose the instincts that suit your agenda.
Sorry.
If it’s okay for humans to mimic the carniverous instincts of certain species, then you cannot arbitrarily dismiss the instincts you find objectionable.
Wingnut said
#21 – Bea… isn’t the PLANT or maybe the SEED… the meekest living things on the planet? And yet vegans (and others) crop/kill these living things by the trillions per day. Just because a living thing uses photosynthesis instead of blood, does that make it a non-living thing? There again is a potential serious discrimination on the part of SOME vegans. Also, how many vegans are willing to kill or condone killing insects that attack vegetable crops? Most, probably. Are insects living things? Yep. Will a vegan share his/her celery with an insect, or use “power” to squish it instead? How many living things get killed, so that a vegan can pretend they are saving living things? Do vegans fence-out animals who want to eat veggies from their gardens? Can a person OWN vegetation? If so, you can own a carnivore, too. Fair is fair.
Wingnut said
Actually, I meant to say “you can own an ANIMAL, too” (sorry)
Aragorn23 said
@Wingnut: Even if we accepted the rather counter-intuitive notion that plants have any type of sentience (modern biology certainly balks at this notion), we would *still* then come vegan in order to minimise the suffering of those poor plants and seeds: http://unpopularveganessays.blogspot.com/2009/06/plant-sentience.html
warwak said
All the arguing eventually becomes ad naseum.
It’s really very simple. Either you have a heart or you are selfish. Very simple.
Leave my friends alone.
This is not just about diet. Don’t believe everything you see. The world is an illusion. Wake up. There are many things all around us made from animals that we never notice. We’re so disconnected; we don’t even notice this right in front of our face three times a day. When we open our circle of compassion to all, we grow as a people and our treatment of each other and others improves. It really is about peace, love, and compassion for all.
It is not a “personal choice” when you are eating my friends and you are ruining my world. When you made your “personal choice” did you ask the animal if you could confine, torture, and murder him or her? When you made your “personal choice” did you ask me if I mind all your pollution and devastation? My tax money subsidizes your “personal choice.” Just because we personally make selfish choices does not make them “personal choices.”
And if you are a mother-fucking child-rapist corpse-munching menstrual-slurping blood-sucker you are no friend of mine.
Where’s the love? Where’s the humanity?
Humane Education and vegan school lunches will solve most of the world’s problems.
Eventually, corpse-munchers will die off and the world will rejoice.
Bea Elliott said
Wingnut… Let me be more specific: Look to the meekest sentient beings; protect them from that power and you protect all from it.
Plants do not have pain receptors or a central nervous system… They cannot feel pain. I am 100% certain that animals can and do. And I base my empathy accordingly.
“Also, how many vegans are willing to kill or condone killing insects that attack vegetable crops?” This is a matter of necessity and defense. I have no problem squishing a flea, tick or mosquito that is sucking my blood. They are the aggressor. I am protecting myself and my rights. This is a world of difference between deliberately raising defenseless animals to kill them for needless purposes. It’s not like as if the pigs, cows or chickens are “attacking” us… On the contrary.
Furthermore, if one wishes to reduce the suffering caused by crop harvesting – go vegan. Livestock consumes the vast majority of grains/corn in the “fattening” process. Only for us to consume them… this just compounds the suffering and the killing.
And I don’t understand your thought: “Can a person OWN vegetation? If so, you can own an animal, too. Fair is fair.”
If I own vegetation, it is like owning a rock, a car, a pair of sneakers… none has a life… or an interest in life. They are “things”.
Sentient beings that know they are of the world – have an interest in remaining in the world. Sentient beings who experience pain have an interest in avoiding pain… Each has the priviledge to “own” their own life… Rocks, cars and sneakers cannot make this claim.
And if it were the case, that animals were not sentient… and could not be harmed – I should be able to hang any animal from any tree in my yard, without causing offense from the neighbors or law. But I assure you, if I did such an act, I would be (rightfully) condemned by all.
We already recognize that animals feel and suffer – it is only that we are indoctrinated to closing our eyes to (some) suffering that is the crux. It is our moral dissonance caused by “habit” and powerful money systems that keeps this incongruant ideology alive.
A cat feels the same pain as a cow or chicken… if one wishes to be consistent in their treatment of animals – the only course left is to be vegan.
Wingnut said
Thanks for the excellent response, Bea and others. I disagree that plants don’t feel pain. i just think they scream at frequencies we can’t hear. But pain or no pain, should one living thing have the right to end the life of another living thing before it dies of natural causes/old age, no matter if it feels/announces pain, or not. Croppers are still taking the life of a living thing… before it naturally dies. Sure, this might be called nitpicking, and know that I am attempting to head toward veganism, but just the same, I’m a plant and bug hugger. Is the mosquito truly attacking you, or is it using its instinct to harvest a food source per its “nature”? You/we can be loving and allow it to have a meal, or kill it with your/our power. By killing it, is a person any less a killer than a deer hunter?
By the way, deer hunters in this area hang dead animals (deer) from trees in yards quite commonly. Its a show of manliness in hunting prowess. (I actually find it rather sick, but MANY don’t, as hunting deer is very common here in Michigan’s U.P.).
Also, sneakers and rocks don’t breathe and grow and eat. They are not in the same category as plants and insects.
Thanks for all the comments about the smell-draw situation, too, everyone. I’m glad to hear it has the potential to be eliminated/bypassed. My reply etiquette is all over the place here… sorry gang. I have about 10,000 irons in the fire this morning, but I sure do enjoy this discussion. Warwak – “It’s really very simple. Either you have a heart or you are selfish. Very simple.”… well said, me thinks. Does that include caring about water? If so, it includes the rock, as well. Maybe “care about everything” is the wisest move for bewildered Wingnut, huh?
Bea Elliott said
About plants and the ability to feel pain, here’s an interesting synopsis by DaVinci – That since plants lack the ability to move (protect itself) it makes it evident that it cannot feel pain. http://www.examiner.com/x-4198-Vegan-Examiner~y2009m7d4-Animal-rights-in-the-words-of-DaVinci?cid=examiner-email
I like plants and insects too… Would I deliberately harm either for “fun” – absolutely not. But the cropper is attempting to live, and provide nourishment for others — There is a certain amount of “protection” from the harm of others that is within reason to survive. Now, if the cropper were to deliberately breed weevils, grasshoppers or bunnies just to release them into his field so they could be killed during harvest — that would be absolute vicious cruelty… But this is what we do to mammals and birds (and fish)… deliberately make them to kill them. There is no “accident” to it… or any doctrine of minimal harm.
Yes, the mosquito is attacking me and possibly causing my body further damage, as in ticks and West Nile. I see no problem with someone defending themselves against harm, even if the other being is “only” attempting to survive. I would feel the same if I encountered a wild boar in the woods – If it attacked me (even for food)… I have no issue with preventing him from harming me by any means necessary.
About Michigan and hanging dead animals from trees… what can I say, the level of human depravity has exceeded my worst nightmares… But in my neighborhood with different social mores — this would not be tolerated as acceptable behavior.
“Animal, vegetable, mineral” – Insects… why harm them if you don’t have to? Plants: cannot feel pain… rocks are minerals, and like sneakers and ipods… also cannot feel pain.
http://beaelliott.blogspot.com/2009/03/live-vegetables-vs-dead-animals-vegan.html
I think it’s great that you’re questioning (everything)… But the clearly obvious things -like needlessly killing *innocent* sentient beings… might even be answered by your own internal set of values. I get the idea from what you’ve written – you already have some reason-based firm conclusions…
Wingnut said
“firm conclusions”? Try wobbly momentary deductions.
I’m in full research mode, and that requires open-mind (nothing concluded). Everyone’s words are making me sway in the wind. I’m pretty sure conclusions aren’t even necessary. Gathering and weighing views from wise and compassionate folk is the most important thing. That’s why I seem a little wishy-washy and butt-kissy. I’m in pig heaven and I’m gobbling dairy queen data to the point of gluttony!
Nemesis said
Another brilliant article. Many thanks!
And thank you Camille:
‘The idea that animal rights advocates
should tolerate and negotiate with
sadistic speciesists is ludicrous…’
This sums up the situation perfectly!
David
eum_templar@hotmail.com said
i promise not to eat any more meat WHEN other non-human animals stop eating meat as well.
i promise never to shoot, wound, or otherwise damage other non-human animals for food WHEN they stop wounding or killing other non-human animals.
i welcome your comments and emails
Aragorn23 said
@Eum_templar: I promise to stop eating my children when non-human animals stop eating their children. I promise to stop murdering members of my species when non-human animals stop murdering members of their species. I promise to stop raping when non-human animals stop raping.
Do you see where your logic leads?
QuestionAsker said
Why do all vegans conveniently forget that they also kill, maim, rend and tear helpless living organisms when they chop up a salad for dinner?
You have to kill a carrot to eat it. You also have horrible threshing machines for harvesting wheat, corn, and other farmed vegetables that destroy living plants in a most horrible way by chopping them into bits and pieces.
Of course, vegans will console themselves by claiming that plants are not sentient beings…although more and more, science is showing that plants experience a form of fear when they are approached and torn limb from limb. The’ve also been shown to communicate with each other chemically when threatened by violence or attack.
Just because you cannot hear a plant scream does not mean it does not experience pain when harvested. Just because you cannot see their “face” does not make it OK to kill and maim them any more than it does to kill and maim any other living organism.
Humans, like every other living organism on the planet, both plant and animal, need to kill and eat other things, both plant and animal, in order to survive.
So, vegans, quit with the holier than thou attitude concerning your diet and way of life. You kill as many living things as I do to fill your stomach. You just feel better about the things you kill because you do not have the capacity to see their face or hear them scream.
I think one must respect ALL life and living organisms and take, with thanks and respect, only what is required for survival, whether that be meat or vegetable.
Aragorn23 said
I’m so sick of this ridiculous ‘carrots have feelings’ heckling :-/
Look, even if we *do* accept your absurd notion that plants can suffer, it *still* makes sense to subsist on a plant-based diet because we use *less* plants this way than if we first feed the plants to animals and in turn eat those animals.
The link in #27 explains this.
poetshound said
Wingnut,
I want to address your first call out: The smell of cooking meat. It is the same as the smell of baking pastry. Our response is to the promise of sugars, which is what our cells burn for fuel. Thus, a visceral response. Few ripe smells in nature carry the long distances that the smell of cooking can. Yet, imagine your response to the smell of a field of ripe strawberries. Heaven, right? Our species is culturally disposed to overstimulation, and primary in that compulsive behavior is our senses of taste and smell. Any human can prove this by going on a six-month cleanse. Fruit (for calories = lots of it), tender greens, and some vegetables for nutrients. After going through food withdrawals (mostly salt addiction), one will find that they have intensely greater sensitivity to smells (you veggies think meat smells bad now…) and tastes. Even more amasing, eat a tablespoon of salt after the cleanse. Your heart rate will shoot up as if you have overdosed on energy drinks. Salt is a stimulant.
We are a gentle creature, intensely aware and sensitive to our surroundings. The unnatural world in which we find ourselves is SO unnatural, that our very cells are forced into bizarre cancerous blooms of activity. Our bodies are OF the world and intertwined with all of creation. How vain our attempts to effectively remove our presence from the world using climate control and manufacturing and, most destructively, concentrated forms of energy.
I disagree with the anthropomorphism of all creatures. I believe that it is a misrepresentation of lifeforce. However, if a human gains an empathic perspective for all life by putting animal life in some category, then by all means. I find that a lack of respect for life shines bright on this site. Much focus is given to self-righteousness and anger at the Others who eat meat, yet most of us here have been indoctrinated at one time and for whatever reason, deigned to seek an alternative. Free your minds, I say. Recreate your life to be a beacon of revolutionary focus. Opponents can argue or dismiss any rationale or analysis. They can not argue with experience or living proof. No one can say that what I continually discover by eating raw fruit and greens is wrong. NO ONE can debate my truths. I don’t attempt to convince anyone of my evidence, I just tell them to do what I did. Change will come. People either accept it or they do not. The form of that change may be their deaths, for resisting truth always ends the same way. Yet, so does embracing truth. No one here gets out alive.
I believe in humans being. I believe in the truth. I see change all around me and I respect every being’s right to see it for themselves. I own my anger at the killing of all life. It’s mine. NO one else gets to have my anger. Even vegans in this country support the murders of countless beings by our government; support the enslavement of countless more. It’s not enough to advocate for the animals. Advocate for Life.
Arguing the talking points will only get a dismissal from both sides: Animals are sentient beings who feel pain/ so what? – human life is more important! Humans are natural carnivores/ you’re wrong! Nutritionists say we need fish oil/ Omega3’s are hyped! The list is as long as the roster of humans on the planet. Consequences, however, can not be argued. They are fact. Arsenic, when used in moderation will not kill you, but it’s still poison. If you believe in how you live, then live that Way. Just expect consequences.
We are social creatures and we constantly compare ourselves and are conditioned to judge either The Other or ourselves when faced with differences. Working outside these social paradigms greatly improves the chances that facts will be received in good faith. It is possible to empathise with a person struggling with their participation in genocide, yet stay true to the facts about the consequences of genocide. Give no quarter to those who minimalise the impact they have on the state of affairs, yet make it clear that you are intolerant of the behavior, not superior to your fellow human. Because I guarantee that you’re not. And I also guarantee that their resistance to your passion is more often a resistance to your posture. We are all in the same boat, that’s the point! And if you attempt to show how they are actually out treading water without a life-vest, it’s going to be difficult to argue that we are in the same boat, right? What you want is for them to take responsibility for their contribution. Try asking that of someone without taking responsibility yourself.
Robert said
It is not hard to write prose that sounds impressive. To write simply that which is true is more difficult.
H said
Forgive me but the article seems to be suggesting the cesation of a Nazi-esque holocaust against the rest of the animals by holding your very own Nazi-esque holocaust against, and you said it, just another sentient animal, thus ensuring that you do all of the things you profess to despise, just to different sentient creatures that you don’t happen to like. Doesn’t that make you as bad as them?
Blowing things up is violence no matter how justified you think it is. Blowing things up is a pretty good dictionary definition of violence. Many of the people you claim committed violence to change society did no such thing, they committed civil disobedience and whatever else the Suffragets did, they did not advocate a new genocide of anything. All organisations who have changed things, disobedience or not, did so by gaining popular support, the people agreed with them. That is the only way to get things to change. As some of the comments say, animal protectors are wildly outnumbered. Maybe the reason for that is that advocating the death of anyone who disagrees with you is not a good way to get people to listen?
Wingnut said
Wow, thanks Poetshound! “anthropomorphism”, huh? That word is bigger than the town I live in!
I read the posts/information in this thread… about 10 times now, and I still can’t get my mind and heart wrapped around its enormity. I get stuck seeking “normal” at times, and you guys and gals sort of give me warrant to pursue a unusual version of normalcy.
PH, you are about as unique and unusual as they come, yet the things you say somehow seem old hat and obvious. I’m honored that you take the time and words to “remind?” me. When I was gigging full-time in Anchorage Alaska, I worked with a swell gal named Christie Evans, who ran “cleansed”, and she talks just like you, PH! She would tell me about all the things that changed for her… no skin breakouts, pits don’t stink, on and on. She had to eat nearly constantly, and even did it on-stage, but she was “at peace with herself” like nobody I had ever met. Heart of gold, mind of gold, aura of gold, seemingly aligned with Earth and heavens… just like you, PH. Strange stuff… very abnormal to me, yet not. I have lots to learn. Thanks again for the fresh perspectives, PH, and others.
SexyVegan said
Hi all,
Bea Elliott and Aragorn23, thank you for making such cogent and articulate points as you have.
To those who imply in one form or another that those individuals who advocate in defense of animal rights ought to instead devote our efforts into advocating for human equality / justice because it is more important, I will remind you that both are important, and neither is more important. There is no historical proof whatsoever that I have seen which shows that achieving justice for humans leads to achieving rights for animals. In fact, there is ample evidence to show that in small isolated social groups or societies where human equality / justice exists, animals may be no closer to not being treated as property than in a human society where widespread inequality or injustice exists amongst the human members. So the argument that human rights brings about animal rights is wholly unfounded and I would argue erroneous.
Please consider this: http://www.nonviolenceunited.org/veganvideo.html
On a similar note, it appears that Glenn (post 11) has embraced a fairly common (and very dangerous to all individuals) way of thinking in his position that begins, “Sorry, Veggies, but it seems….”. The calamity of this type of thinking is that it is precisely the thinking that has led to the exploitation and enslavement of blacks in some nations, the inequality and great mistreatment of women in parts of the world, and the injustice of native people throughout modern history as just 3 of many examples. When the thinking goes something like, “Oh, they are only ______” (fill in the blank with “blacks” or “animals” or any group) (when compared to the favored group of the individual who embraces hierarchies or selective discrimination), then sadly, any group of sentient individuals for any partial, biased, or intolerant reason can be subjectively viewed as “not worthy of similar consideration” and of course, then consequently disparaged and treated with minimal or no regard to his or her interests. From an intuitive and logical vantage, to that individual (whether a mouse with no formal name attached to her or the President of the US), what occurs in her life is as important to her as what occurs in his life to him. This is really important to understand and at the crux, I believe, of the argument of anyone advocating for any animal’s (human or nonhuman) right / need for justice.
Humans aren’t necessarily drawn to the smell of burning flesh…some are, some aren’t. Please keep in mind, the piece of flesh that most people grill, fry, bake, or cook is usually, in one form or another, not the same as a piece of flesh cut off an animal and within moments thrown onto the burning hot metal. There’s typically a series of denaturing processes (including tenderizing in many cases) that goes on between the kill floor at the abattoir and the butcher counter. On top of this, some cuts of flesh are treated with chemicals (like nitrates and such) at a point in between and some is seasoned prior to throwing on the burning hot metal. On top of all this, if humans were true carnivores (which we unequivocally are not), our physiology and anatomy would be radically different than it is; AND, we would ALL salivate at the sight of pigeons pecking around on the ground, as just one of many possible examples of this false assumption. Indeed, we are “carnists”, not carnivores.
Finally, in response to Wingnut’s “My question is… Why should semi-violent vegan activists go after meat-eating humans…”, the answer couldn’t be more obvious in my view; there is no biological requirement for animal flesh in the human body and therefore, eating animal’s flesh (for anyone who has their free will to choose what and what not to eat) is a matter of choice. We know that humans can make such choices with certain capacities and capabilities which include, but are not limited to moral values, ethical concerns, intellectual reasoning, philosophical beliefs, contemplation and deliberation of highly complex reasoning, etc, etc, etc. Nonhumans, in accord with current scientific or critical understanding, don’t posses the capacity or capabilities to make decisions based on these things. Thus, why should anyone (let alone vegan advocates) seek to try to convince lions (as just one example) to go vegan…I mean, in all honesty, that’s a patently absurd suggestion.
“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men.” – Alice Walker
thomaspainescorner said
I’ve read and considered the comments. I only have a couple of minutes, so I wanted to make a few quick points:
1. My philosophical support for violence as ONE tactic of the animal liberation movement is consistent with activists and thinkers of social movements throughout history, as I wrote in the essay. I’m a very intellectual person and will act to solve nearly any problem sans violence, but I’ve faced situations in my life where I’ve had little or no choice but to become violent to protect myself or others. And aside from historical precedent and personal experience, I again refer readers to the unfathomably powerful and expansive acts of violence enacted by the corporatist state on human and nonhuman animals and the Earth (physical, psychological and economic), 24-7-365, killing billions upon billions each year in abbatoirs, medical labs, battlefields, rainforests, ghettos, “developing nations,” etc…If the state can rape, pillage, plunder and murder with impunity on a massive scale, those of us opposing them would be foolish to utterly eliminate violence from our toolbox.
2. State repression comes down when a movement, tactic or individual is effective, not because it or they are violent. Thomas Paine was run out of three countries for his radical writings and ideologies—not because he was injuring or killing people or even damaging property.
3. As living beings on Earth, it is inevitable that we will kill other living beings, simply as a part of our existence. Our immune systems kill untold thousands of bacteria each day to keep us healthy and alive. The goal of veganism isn’t to eliminate all killing; it’s to minmize it, to eliminate (or severely minimize) unnecessary suffering, and to afford sentient beings the essential right to live free of torture, inflicted suffering, or confinement. I’ve yet to meet a vegan (nor any human actually) who doesn’t believe that sentient beings have the right to self-defense. The act of inflicting violence upon an incorrigble animal torturer or exploiter who refuses to stop is merely an act of extensional self-defense, as I discussed in the essay. Defending those who can’t defend themselves. Bringing killing plants, which aren’t even sentient (much less subjects of a life), into the discussion isn’t worthy of further debate.
4. Vegans don’t have the market cornered on morality and not many I know profess that we do. Freeganism and those who eat fallen food are actually living more ethically than those of us who are vegans.
5. I am not suggesting that all of those of us in the animal liberation movement go out and start committing violent acts against individuals as they make purchases at the meat counter. That’s stupid. My position is just a tad more nuanced than that. In brief, I am affirming the need for groups like the ALF, Animal Liberation Brigade, and the Justice Department to inject some militant direct action into the movement. Violence is one spoke in the wheel. Vegan advocacy and education, rescuing animals, leafletting, writing letters, doing demonstrations (see my new site for an activist group I just founded in KC http://biteclubkc.wordpress.com/ and http://biteclubkc.wordpress.com/about/), circulating petitions, working through the legal/legislative system, boycotting, civil disobedience, and virtually any form of activism one can imagine play equally important roles. We need to employ the tactics that make sense and are effective in a given situation, and sometimes militance and violence make sense and are effective. In corporatist capitalism, the system that exploits nearly everyone, human and nonhuman animal alike, we are going up against a ruthless, law of the jungle, pitiless socioeconomic entity—and many of those who’ve risen to the top are sociopaths. Don’t think I’d shed a tear for them if they died at the hands of animal defenders or Hamas or the Zapatistas, or any of the liberation groups fighting oppression and exploitation. Our struggle (those of us who’ve dedicated ourselves to defending animals) is one with the indigenous people, the poor, the Palestinians, LGBT, women, and the rest of the subjugated and oppressed. We do not require veganism; we will work with any liberationists (like Ward Churchill) as long as they respect our cause and ally with us. See http://thomaspainescorner.wordpress.com/total-liberation/
6. Ivor, I thought you and I were allies, but apparently not. If growing up white middle class in the US with a psychologically abusive tyrant of a father; hitting rock bottom financially, emotionally and spiritually in my early twenties–including homelessness, chemical dependency, unemployment, and rejection by all friends and family; waging a long and ugly custody battle for my children; working shitty, low paying, no benefit blue collar jobs for 6 years; nearly dying in a severe industrial accident; doing work for which I’m ill-suited because I fucked up in my youth and got locked into something that paid a decent salary but doesn’t align with my talents or education; and living in deep debt (because of money I’ve poured into my activism) and working 14 hours a day 7 days a week to pay the bills AND do my activism gives you a “whiff of privilege,” come and live my “privileged” life, Ivor. Speaking of privilege and veganism, eating “meat,” is a choice. It isn’t expensive to eat vegan. I learned to live on VERY little money when I was at rock bottom. If a person has enough money to feed themselves, they could be vegan. Come shopping with me sometime or come to my place to eat. It isn’t gourmet, but it’s vegan and it’s cheap.
7. Violence is a tactic, and at times, a necessity, not a moral issue. Those in power don’t hesitate to crush, kill and destroy. Fuck worrying about whether or not it’s moral to fight back. Who in their right mind denies the right of a woman to fight her rapist? Who denies the right of a homeowner the right to kill an intruder and threat to their family? Who (but the United States) denies the right of a sovereign nation to defend itself against an invasion by an occupying army? Who would stand by and watch someone beat the shit out of a child on the street? Or even a dog, for that matter? Well, some people don’t stand idly by while innocent animals are under attack in laboratories and factory farms. Activists take many different forms of action (like educating, demos, boycotts, writing—as I detailed above), and some are violent. And if the tactic is effective and makes sense, more power to them, and fuck the animal abuser.
8. When I refer to violence as a tactic, I’m talking about employing it against the system and hardened speciesists who are profiteers and careerists within the animal exploitation system. I’m militant in my approach/attitude, but I don’t advocate using violence against individuals because they eat meat or wear fur coats. I have many friends and family who are still necrovores (when we eat “meat” we are actually eating rotting flesh, like vultures—not fresh kill, like carnivorous nonhuman animals) and I was a necrovore until a few years ago. Aside from my writing, publishing and demoing, much of my activism involves educating, persuading, vegan outreach, tabling, leafletting, and so forth. I rarely approach people in a hateful or mean-spirited way to “convince them to quit eating meat.” I can be very controversial and confrontational, but I choose my battles and I’ve found that generally, it pays to approach people with kindness, or at least in a neutral way. I’m a zealot, but I temper my approach and contextually apply the tactics that fit a given situation.
9. With respect to the absurd question as to why we’re not converting carnivorous nonhuman animals to veganism, that’s another childish defense of the disgusting human habit (the same one I had for years) of eating rotting flesh. Kant summed it up nicely when he classified human animals as moral agents and nonhuman animals as moral patients. We have ethical obligations that nonhuman animals don’t have because we are much more complex thinkers and we have the capability to make complicated moral and ethical distinctions and decisions. Melville had a bit to say on that subject. Something about a captain and a whale….
All for now.
Jason Miller
Ivor Hughes said
Jason .. thank you for the reply .. Your experiences make us brothers under the skin .. however I lost you somewhere along the road .. I think it was around the time of your Baconburger article.
I guess when one needs intellectual stimulation then naturally one would gravitate to where it suits one .. or to seek a teacher .. the IChing says that it behoves one to know what one is feeding to people and what one seeks to fill ones own mouth with.
Sublime .. in a Nutshell. Maybe its time to walk the middle road?
As a specie .. we are now in the position to see our shackles and chains, as at no other time in our written history, and as I have already remarked in another post that this great awakening of the peoples was achieved by a relatively few activist journalists and blogged by millions .. I cannot feel that it was achieved by violence .. Satire. Yes!! .. Hard hitting facts, Yes!! .. The occasional clip around the ear .. Yes!!
I would just like to point out what is going to happen if violence is used is a lot of people will be shot stone dead and many more injured and interned .. they will smash you all just like they smashed Waco and Ruby Ridge .. So I definitely agree with Dr Best .. he has indeed made philosophy dangerous .. And if he believes that he can change human food behavior instilled over the ages of our species then he is entitled to believe that .. but he has no right to talk of liberty in one breath and deny me mine by acts of violence in the next.
Education .. not tribulation .. Without free speech all of TPC is also abolished and you will be severely flogged in a public place etc etc .. you know what I mean.
I hear that some pretty shady bills have been riffling through Congress of late .. something about hate laws .. In Canada a great battle is going to be fought .. this time there will be no show trial .. but please understand that if Arthur Topham falls .. then we all fall with him into open slavery.
So right at the moment I feel that ELF and ALF are an unwelcome distraction from the real action .. without free speech ALF and ELF are heading for the scrap bin .. so how about getting in on some real action?
Wingnut said
Thanks for the comments, Jason! (And others too). It was cool to see you mention “fallen foods”. This thread has sure gone high and wide, and man, is there a pile of intelligence and interesting views going-on here. Sorry to hear about the rough waters your life has experienced… and thanks for the privilege of letting us see you somewhat naked like that.
You sure do have an educated and interesting fan club. A good percentage of the reason for that, is because YOU are educated and interesting. I STILL can’t stop re-reading this thread, and the highly-civil discussions continue. What great thinkers! I’d love to meet and hang-with every single poster in this thread. Pretty amazing people. I feel honored just to be allowed to be a part of it.
Mozybyte said
Everything is Conscience, or as is said: Information.
It is true that Plants, Vegetation too is capable of Logical Participation… So are Rocks.
Below Biology (which we erroneously describe as life), bellow Chemistry, there is executive particulate activity.
In the Order of this World, We Humans are indisputably vegetarians with the potential to omnivorous sustenance in necessity, by allowable complexity, and or as equally Intellectual Atrophy, lack of empathy, undeveloped common sense to the multiple benefits, and in analogy no detriment but indeed much benefit.
We also and most importantly, are not equipped to detect sentience in the plant world, but our own even towards them.
Much that is consumed of the plant world is actually so provided by them, and for their equal benefit… Giving Thanks for your food is best achieved by planting the seed of a fruit just eaten, and thus be blessed by the tree that provided it.
ONE needs no thanks, but if only to see you happy, however that is for each to decide what is them.
We have and are being Duped by Powerful Forces Intent on deviance of ourselves, our natural definition…
Both from the known physical World as itself from Unseen dimensions, beyond common belief, bent on destroying us, fueled by malice and self-deceit.
In time, we that will be, will talk much more about this…
In Honest Analysis, unfettered by dubious interest…
When maybe the Popular Mass Media is Working For Ourselves, For Our Real World, But the Evil for which it is working now.
It is no different to crave on the smell of the barbecue, than to seek the Burka as constructed and yet think it free.
7/13/9
Will You Hold Me?
Ivor Hughes said
Life Eats Life .. round and around .. birth and death .. death and birth. I do like that remark about being blessed by the tree when planting a seed from a recently eaten fruit .. it is a strengthening of the web of life and a conscious understanding of our reliance upon this phantasmagoria that we try to understand our place within it all.
There are those who believe we came from apes .. so yes I am a ‘Speciest’ for the uninitiated that is the new ansti-semetic word, once the hate laws are enacted. Then the non speciests come to shoot us down .. Oxymorons for morons.
There are those that think that its all a product of random chance .,. perhaps we have our own phylla on the tree of life .. we do not know .. we only hold an unproven view which has been propagated by violence and propaganda by the clever people in Academia .. well just remember the fate of Lavoisier .. the mob had his head in a basket.
I will say it again .. animals cannot be free .. until mankind is free .. and the course that some of the more radical members of this forum are proposing is no more than an escalation and perpetuation of the problem.
Education Not Tribulation!
Camille Marino said
“I will say it again .. animals cannot be free .. until mankind is free”
Is that a rationalization for perpetuating the holocaust or a self-fulfilling prophecy?
SexyVegan said
Hi,
So Jason, what stage are you in of this plan you elude to? Do you have worked out the logistics of how your plan will be carried out? If yes, what precise data have you referenced which would show that this plan would be predictably successful?
As an aside, Mozybyte writes, “Much that is consumed of the plant world is actually so provided by them, and for their equal benefit…” I am not understanding your thoughts here; if you could help clear this up for me, that would be appreciated. Are you suggesting that plants possess a conscious intention to wish to be eaten?
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=78601&id=558750904#/photo.php?pid=1812197&id=558750904
Mozybyte said
That is why the fruit is provided yes… The sugar is for our as all others seduction.
By providing, it often ensures assistance in propagation…
Many Meat eaters use this argument, that the best way to ensure a species does not go extinct is by making it part of our commercial supply line.
That is the Power of Ourselves as Top Predators, but also the cancelling argument to the Arrogant Irresponsible Predator but Cooperative In it’s Place Participant.
We have been the cause of countless extinctions, we have used all our architectural know how on shallow short term gain in the pursuit of the “Almighty”, the “Promissory Note”, The Lie.
The Fiat without wheels going nowhere, “Kindly” provided by a “Printer” near you.
Even seeds that we consume, if only we drop one on occasion, as we do and all others, in likely trodden paths, is beneficial to the plant.
The Important aspect is that it is “Our Natural Food”.
Indeed we can’t live without killing, and Yes We Too will go, this is yet to be life.
It’s about the stress levels we have created for not only ourselves but everything else on this Mothearth.
We are Trashing the ‘Place or as Mother wants it said… The ‘OLace.
O + ( – M [Y] ) = > Z
There is Perpetrated Violence and Defensive Violence… I agree that even Defensive Violence is Perpetrated, but sometimes one runs out of room for flight, and thus must stand…
There is No Room Left
No TIME left
29’s in India earned their bond the hard way, but today the word of any of them as witnesses stands unchallenged by any judge…
And their Free… They Live
One can keep on arguing, or Stand Up…
For Everything
For All Of Us
Yes us
Jason Miller said
I discussed ideologies, tactics, attitudes, actions, and so forth, but I don’t recall laying out a specific plan. I’m an anarchist activist and thinker, not a self-professed “master-mind” of the movement. Please elaborate.
SexyVegan said
Hi Jason,
I apologize in advance that what I’m going to write might be highly offensive to you.
What good is it to write so eloquently about animals and about what is happening to animals and then to propose such an absurd and wholly unrealistic ’solution’? One need not be a “master-mind” of the movement to conjecture, even on a cursory level, that to win a war of violence against all the players in the “exploitation game” (along with having to win the war against all the law enforcement and governmental authorities, organizations, forces, etc that would undoubtedly intervene on behalf of those businesses and the establishment) so that the industrialized carnage of nonhuman animals would come to a grinding halt, is not even in the realm of plausibility in our society today. I am reminded in what you propose, of a dear friend of mine whom I’ve had many discussions with regarding the “what to do” about the plight of the animals. Shortly after his ‘awakening’ to the whole animal situation, he had suggested to me in a straight tone a couple of times that the animal protection movement, in order to end the exploitation, suffering, and killing of animals, blow up all businesses everywhere that engage in the exploitation or killing of animals! He has since chsnged his mind but I do understand the raw emotion that brought such a preposterous ’solution’ to quick thought.
I just feel you need to really think this out man…give some serious, deliberated thought to the “master-mind” end of your suggestion. That’s a part (the “how”) that needs to be thought out just as carefully as the part where you conceive an idea of what to do (the what).
Once again, sorry for the crudeness of my delivery but I don’t know a better way how to get my point across to you on this particular area of concern.
Jason Miller said
I’m not offended in the least. I don’t need to rethink my position. It’s based on sound reasoning, historical precedence, and empirical observation of the animal liberation movement. Militant direct action has made significant contributions to the struggle for animal liberation, the least of which is making legal, above-ground groups appear much less “extreme” to speciesist carnivores than they would otherwise, thus opening avenues for progress by these entities.
More:
1. As a couple of people on this thread have pointed out, the “Disney” versions of social justice movements that have succeeded without violence or direct action are false. There were violent factions and actions that worked in concert with Gandhi in India. Malcolm X and the Black Panthers played a meaningful role in the civil rights movement. Gandhi and MLK didn’t “do it all” with their non-violent approaches.
2. Again, I assert the need for contextualism—implementing the tactic that is effective in a given situation. Mandela abandoned non-violence when he realized it was no longer effective.
3. We, and based on your handle I take it you are an abolitionist/animal liberationist since you are vegan, are fighting the machine of monopoly capitalism/speciesism/Western Civilization that is exploiting, maiming, and devouring the Earth and its sentient inhabitants. Our nonhuman animal brethren are bearing the brunt of the system’s onslaught as they are eaten, skinned, hunted, vivisected, poisoned, and so on. If we were talking about human beings holocausted at the rate of 50 some odd billion a year, we wouldn’t even be debating the morality or efficacy of violence or militance. We (I hope you would join me) would be waging a full scale war. So, since the victims are “just” nonhuman animals, we can’t fight back for them?
4. As a proponent of militant direct action and a press officer for the North American Animal Liberation Press Office, which serves as a voice and media platform for the ALF, ALB, and similar groups, I’m not suggesting that everyone in the movement go out and blow up animal exploiting entities. However, I fully endorse and support the underground (and the fact that they operate as underground anarchist cells addresses your concern that we vegans are too few in number to openly fight the immense power of the corporatist state) militant direct activists and they’re bold actions.
5. Since I’m short on time and there’s no point in re-inventing the wheel, I suggest you take a look at these essays:
http://thomaspainescorner.wordpress.com/2009/04/01/you-don%E2%80%99t-support-the-alf-because-why/
http://thomaspainescorner.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/nonviolence-and-its-violent-consequences/
http://thomaspainescorner.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/arms-and-the-movement/
Ivor Hughes said
Camille Marino
“Is that a rationalization for perpetuating the holocaust or a self-fulfilling prophecy”?
Hello Camille,
well that one gave me pause for thought and trying to see from the somewhat violent standpoint of ALF.
Holocaust is too prissy a word to describe what is happening in the animal world, Jason had a go .. the buzz out on the net is watch out the Vegans are coming to get you, and there is some very big money behind them .. the arousal of resistance to the stated aims of your organization is already underway. Meat .. its a huge industry Camille .. and it appears that some of you are quite prepared to bring down innocents to erode support for the Corporations .. this is called terror .. Yes? .. So what makes the organization think that terror tactics will work? What if it arouses violent resistance from the authorities?. Gunships,Phosphorus, Light Tanks .. grenade launchers .. oh they will just love putting on some Circus for the people .. do you understand?
At times words are poor servants .. pale shadows of ones true intent .. perhaps what I should have said .. one thing for sure is the great increase in global population. Some one said that the Earth could feed 15 to 18 billion if we turned vegetarian and it is a fact that we use not much more than 6% of the total biomass on a sustainable basis .. obviously there are restraint logistics involved in going over to a vegetarian diet.
Violent revolutions rarely turn out well when organized by ruffians, such as in the former Rhodesia now Zimbabwe .. nearly everyone is hungry .. and I am sure that one will find plenty of malnutrition and advanced starvation in those inevitable shanty towns that spring up around cities as the people pour in from a sadly stricken economy. That is already well underway in the USA.
By Education I am speaking of a properly formulated plan as to how such an economic conversion could be made .. you know the money changers head stuff .. talk dollars and sense at them ..
Your organization has the necessary Academic diplomatic emissaries .. go to it .. and strength to your collective arm .. may it be mighty in peaceful revolution.
Camille Marino said
Ivor said: the word is out that “vegans are coming to get you, and there is some very big money behind them”
Thank you for telling me. I’m encouraged when abolitionist vegans mobilize and stand together. Our dedication and solidarity translates into promise for all of the victims being tortured at this second by the enemy.
In terms of “big money”, I’m confident that any true animal rights activist would agree with me that animal rights doesn’t pay well… actually, it doesn’t pay at all. I suspect there’s a diatribe coming about animal advocacy organizations (e.g., PeTA, HSUS) raking in the big bucks. I assure you, welfare conglomerates and abolitionists are two different entities.
What is my “organization” to which you refer? I am an independent activist affiliated with no organization. But I’ll be happy to enlighten you with my personal philosophy. I am painfully aware that the corpse-production industries are big business. You want to cite “terror”? Terror is being confined in filth and deprived of every natural instinct in one’s miserable wretched life; terror is being mutilated… being debeaked, having your testicles unceremoniously ripped from your body and thrown in a pile like all the rest, having your teeth pulled from head with pliers, miscellaneous extremities cut off — all without the benefit of anesthetics… suffer!; terror is being repeatedly raped to crank out more sentient commodities; terror is being prodded, kicked, and fork-lifted to your death, while you’re helplessly flailing and the heartless mother fuckers start hacking your body apart piece by piece. And that’s ONLY the conventional food supply. I haven’t touched vivisection or entertainment or clothing or hunting or fishing or breeding companion animals or any other speciesist abomination.
Now, Ivor, I’m not a violent person. But let me be unequivocal here. If every single heartless purveyor of death sadistic piece of dirt (as well as all those selfish clods who know but cheerfully perpetuate the holocaust anyway) had to be exterminated to end the misery, not only would I not lose any sleep over it — I’d throw a goddamn party.
Again, I speak for no organization. But it seems to me that you’re deluded if you believe that the magnitude of the torment inflicted by capitalist sadists doesn’t scream for a violent revolution. They are practically demanding it.
Let me quote Nelson Mandela: Nonviolence is not a moral principle; it is a strategy. And an ineffective strategy is useless.
paxman said
Camille well spoken a true Boadicea or Joan of Ark for Nature, but from where I am looking you have one leg shorter than the other .. one cannot see or think straight unless you are balanced.
You claim to be a loner .. then I presume that you must claim the originality of the ideas that you espouse?
Can you not see that is what the Axis of Evil is inflicting on everyone .. the whole deal ..
You have eliminated barriers to the animals yet erect them against your own kind .. do you do this in the name of religion or politics or is it empathy?
Camille ‘Passion is the REAL drug of the people is it not? I used to emotionally masturbate myself by slashing and burning everywhere and releasing the gas from a diet toxic liver .. Your passion is your source of power .. Your power.
In hindsight I understand now .. that such behavior on my part contributed little to the public good .. just blah blah into the wind .. its much more satisfying trying to understand both sides .. because as the Iching says .. to know the ‘Seed’ is the thing, because one can then know the fruit .. the apple is decidedly rotten.
So I offer my spurned Olive Branch again .. its a bit tattered now .. but its the thought that counts as the wise women say.
paxman said
Oh an BTW Gandhi succeeded in removing the British from India by non violent means .. Ahimsa.
Aragorn23 said
That’s not true at all. Ward Churchill deals extensively with the Gandhi myth in his ‘Pacifism As Pathology’. What really happened involved a lot of militant uprising in India and a lot of violent oppression endorsed, tacitly at least, by Gandhi himself. The same goes for Martin Luther King and the necessary role the Black Panthers played.
Here’s some more on the myth that Gandhi magically removed the British from India through non-violent means: http://www.sa.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1167&Itemid=124
paxman said
A major point in all of current flurry that appears to have been missed .. The Vegan Diet is the Healing Diet .. most things can be cured by diet.
If one is seeking a cure for most things then a good rigorous inner cleanse by the use of a vegan diet .. there comes the converts from the skeptics .. they will stand up for Nature Cure .. for example its sure fire for beat up livers and punch drunk kidneys .. and it eases and cures all of those prostate problems and settles the problems of lumps in the breast .. nails grow firm .. hair shines .. eyes sparkle .. once people try and suceed then the demand for factory farmed meat will be the first to fall because the intelligent consumer always puts money where the mouth is .. Capitalism always follows the smell of hot money.
Robert said
What do you recommend that I eat, to cure baldness?
SE said
“Anybody who tries to even kill a bird or cut a tree in our area, can’t get away easily”, says Sukhram of Guda Bishnoi in the book “Paving the Way for Peace” Living Philosophies of Bishnois & Jains by Renato Pilcher.
The killing of animals is a sin for the Bishnois & they demand strong punishment for offenders. They believe that all forms of life enjoy the same rights and that humans dying in the process of defending helples animals or trees have deserved their place in paradise immediately. When one day they caught an Indian Air Force captain hunting, they stripped him & forced him to lie down & roast on the hot sand in the middle of summer.For centuriesBishnoi people have sacrificed their lives in order to protect animals. They even let themselves be decapitated when trying to prevent the felling of trees.
According to the Jains, the lowest form of beings, such as trees & vegetation, possess only the first of the five senses, but are also capable of experiencing joy & pain – the felling of trees is strictly forbidden. Even metals & stones are to be treated with consideration because they also may have life in them.These simpler organisms are followed by micro organisms and smaller animals with 2 (oysters & earthworms), 3 (millipedes & leave worms) & 4( bees & flies) senses.
The Jains have been living for thousands of years without meat & their lives show that a long lasting & intensive respect for animals brings about at the same time a larger indulgence towards humans, as well as an overall noticeable reduction of aggressiveness & violence.
There are other communities who live traditionally without meat but those in India are the oldest & the largest.
So maybe this would be a good place to research humans’ alleged addiction to the smell of meat. Is it a primeval thing or simply that we are brainwashed? Years ago, before I became vegan, I lived in muslim countries where pork was unavailable & craved bacon & ham sandwiches- but eventually I came to realise that not only was the craving due to wanting something I couldn’t have, but that the smell & taste wasn’t that great after all- it was all in my mind.Now it’s completely revolting.
Many women feel nauseous around meat during pregnancy. Maybe it’s the body’s way of protecting the foetus from toxins- caffeine & other substances can also have the same effect.
Historically those who have shown compassion & humanity towards animals have also enhanced the lives of people too. When the first societies to defend animals were established in the in the early 19th century almost all the dominant figures were also passionate in their concern for human rights, like William Wilberforce, Gompertz, Salt & Moore.The New York Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children was set up as a result of a report of an animal being cruelly beaten- the animal being a small child- the British counterpart- the NSPCC was formed as a result.
The work of these reformers emphasises how the campaign against the exploitation of animals actually reinforces & enhances initiatives against human suffering.
Wingnut said
Thanks SE! VERY interesting!
Robert said
Peace has nothing to do with passive behavior. Peace comes about in consequence to a balance that is reached between forces. Often, it necessitates a display or even an exercise of power. Being passive all the time in every situation is subordination. Sometimes it works out well, as anything may do, but not characteristically.
Aragorn23 said
Robert, that reminds me of a quote:
“The desire for a non-violent and cooperative world is the healthiest of all psychological manifestations. This is the overarching principle of liberation and revolution. Undoubtedly, it seems the highest order of contradiction that, in order to achieve non-violence, we must first break with it in overcoming its root causes. Therein, however, lies our only hope.” – Ward Churchill
Ivor Hughes said
Censorship on Thomas Pains corner? lol lol what a fraud.
Ivor Hughes said
paxman said
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
July 7, 2009 at 11:49 pm
Camille well spoken a true Boadicea or Joan of Ark for Nature, but from where I am looking you have one leg shorter than the other .. one cannot see or think straight unless you are balanced.
You claim to be a loner .. then I presume that you must claim the originality of the ideas that you espouse?
Can you not see that is what the Axis of Evil is inflicting on everyone .. the whole deal ..
You have eliminated barriers to the animals yet erect them against your own kind .. do you do this in the name of religion or politics or is it empathy?
Camille ‘Passion is the REAL drug of the people is it not? I used to emotionally masturbate myself by slashing and burning everywhere and releasing the gas from a diet toxic liver .. Your passion is your source of power .. Your power.
In hindsight I understand now .. that such behavior on my part contributed little to the public good .. just blah blah into the wind .. its much more satisfying trying to understand both sides .. because as the Iching says .. to know the ‘Seed’ is the thing, because one can then know the fruit .. the apple is decidedly rotten.
So I offer my spurned Olive Branch again .. its a bit tattered now .. but its the thought that counts as the wise women say.
Ivor Hughes said
I will not be back Jason .. and please remove me from your blog roll.
Thank you
Ivor
Camille Marino said
Ivor, thank you for the olive branch… i graciously accept… let’s do lunch!
I had to google Boadicea — way cool!
Seriously Ivor, I never said I was a loner. I said I was not affiliated with any organization. Insofar as my ideas go, I’m not sure I follow your thought process. Are you suggesting my ideas are somehow invalid because others (very very few others in my experience) may share my values? If that’s the case, I would suggest that the entire population who shares a defective delusion by virtue of a common indoctrination should be entirely discounted. Actually, I would suggest that either way.
Ivor said: “You have eliminated barriers to the animals yet erect them against your own kind .. do you do this in the name of religion or politics or is it empathy?”
I suppose you are somewhat correct. Although we may technically share distinctive characteristics of the same species, I do not subscribe to the commonly-accepted belief that heartless tyrants are “my kind.” This has not been proven to my satisfaction.
I have no allegiance to the perpetrators of misery. It is my personal experience that those who inflict their sadism and sociopathy on the defenseless and innocent are worthy of hatred. I have no problem with this concept. My love is reserved for the victims. In fact, it strikes me as idiocy that humans have been duped (in large part by bible verse) into believing that they must love their enemies. Please! I can’t love the victims and their tormentors at the same time.
With respect to your observations about passion, I absolutely allow my passion to guide me.
Zuzana said
Please, can I have the photo with the peaces of human body in big resolution? (for activism) Thanks. Z.
Mozybyte said
Sorry, I should have said “Bishnois”, I just realized that go ogling 29’s brings up bombers not Heroes…
Thanks SE
SE said
“Multititudes of human beings were systematically fattened as food for the carnivora. They were frequently forwarded to great distances by train,
in trucks, without food or water. Large numbers of infants were constantly boiled down to form broth for invalid animals. In over-popu-
lous districts babies were given to malicious young cats and dogs to be taken away and drowned. Boys were hunted by terriers, and stoned to death by frogs. Mice were a good deal occupied in setting -man-traps, baited with toasted cheese, in poor neighborhoods. Gouty old gentlemen were put into the shafts of night-
cabs, and forced to totter, on their weak ankles and diseased joints, to clubs, where they picked up fashionable young colts, and took them, at such pace as whipcord could extract, to St John’s Wood, to visit chestnut fillies. Flying figures in scarlet coats, buckskins, and top-
boots were run into by packs of foxes. Old cock-grouse strutted out for a morning’s sport, and came in to talk of how many brace of country gentlemen they had bagged. The fate of gamekeepers was appalling; they lived a precarious life in holes and caves ; they were perpetually harried and set upon by game and vermin; held fast in steel traps, their toes were nibbled by stoats and martens ; finally, their eyes picked out by owls and kites, they were gibbeted alive on trees, head downwards, when polecats mounted sentry over them, favoring the sufferers with their agreeable presence till the termination of their martyrdom. In one especially tragic case, a corpulent and short- sighted naturalist in spectacles dodged about
painfully amid the topmost branches of a wood, while a orangutang underneath, armed with a gun, inflicted on him dreadful wounds. A veterinary surgeon of Alfort was stretched on his back,
his arms and legs secured to posts, in order that a horse might cut him up alive for the benefit of an equine audience ; but the generous steed, incapable of vindictive feelings, with
one disdainful stamp on the midriff crushed the
wretch’s life out.”
From B. Hamley’s ” Our Poor Relations-A Philozooic essay”
1872!
Bea Elliott said
Camille said “I can’t love the victims and their tormentors at the same time”. Try as I might… (and I have) – it just doens’t work for me either.
Best that I can do (thus far) is fight them in ways that won’t compromise future battles. Enemies are not going away any time soon – good warriors live to fight (more effectively) another day…
Robert said
It works for me. I can love both of them at the same time. But it’s not because of my nature. It’s because of the nature of love. Love is merely the result of willful thinking. If you decide that you love both, you will; if you don’t, it’s because you decided not to.
poetshound said
For me, it’s as simple as this – I can not view another human as “The Other”. I’ve been that Other. I am still that Other, I just live differently now than I used to. I’ve decided that I can not even call myself a Vegan because it interferes with who I truly am. I am. That’s it.
I believe there are lies out there – dogmatic propaganda as old as Civilisation (perhaps the cause of it) that there are disconnects and separations between us and the rest of Life/Creation/Nature. ‘Victims’ are the most effective messengers of the Truth. They give their lives to show us incontrovertibly that we have been deceiving ourselves. I refuse on one hand to minimise their deaths by calling them useless; on the other, I have no problem calling their deaths senseless. But that’s what it is probably going to take for the bulk of humanity to fucking wake up. And the entirety of Life is committed to the task – especially the victims.
I can love the tormentors and the victims because I, too, am committed to the task.
I interpret the human rights before animal rights message as a different means to the ultimate end. I agree that if animal rights activism leads to total liberation of all Life, then more power to it. I applaud human rights activism more, simply because I am a human and see that when humans are truly liberated, they do not exploit other lifeforms. I believe all humans will eventually come around – there is nowhere else to go.
SexyVegan said
Poetshound,
How do you reckon, “They (victims) give their lives to show us incontrovertibly that we have been deceiving ourselves.” Have you interviewed notable numbers of victims who’ve told you that they intentionally put themselves in harm’s way so that people they don’t even know MAY understand something? I’m trying to understand what it is you are attempting to assert.
You write, “I believe all humans will eventually come around – there is nowhere else to go.” Isn’t there the very strong possibility that humanity will not come around? Therefore, the risk of waiting for that to happen in order for animals not to be exploited (“…when humans are truly liberated, they do not exploit other lifeforms”) seems to me a very troubling proposal, wouldn’t you agree?
Thanks for helping me understand you better.
poetshound said
O.K.
Hmmmm….
O.K.
There are many paths to enlightenment… No, wait…
Hmmmmm….
I guarantee that I am going to type a HUGE response, then pare it down to try and be relevant, but it is difficult to understand me without understand Me.
The picture is big, SV. In my other posts about activism on this website, I have given a narrative about how incredibly difficult it is for me to single out a cause and go after it. If I am honest, all raging against the machine of one unjust human construct (agribusiness, say) opens up to me a new world of exploitation in another, more encompassing form (consumerism.) The scope just keeps getting bigger.
All scopes lead to one major injustice, SV, and it’s one that we perpetuate ourselves upon ourselves using the insidious practice of belief: Lying. The Big Lie. The Fall (for Christians, maybe Jews, I dunno). The Lie is this: We are separate from the rest of the Universe/Creation/Nature. It may seem like an over-simplification, but it’s huge. Imagine a world where every being in (not on) it was aware of and responsible for their part in Everything. If you are a religious person, imagine hearing your god’s voice in your head, laying out the righteous path for you personally – no priests or pastors telling you what you need to do. Imagine a world where there are no middle-men telling you how to justify your very existence and what products you need to be whole. There is an inner dialog going on inside you right now – can you hear it? Is it kind to you? Does it empower you? Does it tear at the fabric of your being? Does it tell you you are inadequate? In other words – is it lying to you? Imagine that this is happening within every single human being in the planet’s biosphere. Human psyches tend to externalise this garbage, SV, because it is too painful and toxic to carry around. It kills us. When this poison is externalised, we have a multitude of manifesting psyches frantically trying not to own responsibility for the utter untruth that is propagated every moment of every day endlessly. All problems out there in the world are very intimate and personal issues we have with ourselves. Little wounds, microcosmically projected onto the world stage by the endless shirking of personal responsibility (leading to a generational millennial pandemic of… well, look around.)
So, having nutshelled where I’m coming from, I don’t see myself as different from any other human. I have my own intimate personal path to liberation going on here just like a vivisectionist does. I have seen posts by a former vivisectionist-turned-animal-rights activist on this site. Every vivisectionist is an animal-rights activist waiting to happen. They are in the thick of the practice of their lie. They face it every day. They are in the most unique position to become enlightened. That is what I mean when I say that every victim is an opportunity to change. I just feel so fortunate that I do not have the emotional task that those folks do to realise the truth of their activity and then recover from it. This is what makes me feel that it is a dishonor to call any victim’s death senseless, because that would mean their life was senseless and that, my friend, is a lie.
This leads to my activism. I’m going to almost call it a ministry. I’m not religious. I’m just me. I have found that I am enough. I need very little to be human. And everything I need is provided FOR FREE by this planet we live in. There are layers upon layers of unnecessary trash between me and my planet: Civilisation. Utterly, completely unnecessary (for me) trash. Now, it would be a lie to call it unnecessary for all humans, because they have their own path to liberation and the images that this planet provides to assist us are infinite. Kudos to Wingnut for his ’school’ analogy. This life is illusory, but instructive. It enables us to release lies and live Truth. Everything is permitted, and that is all that there is to say about that. The most important thing is what I can do to get clear of the vivisectionist, corpse-eating, consumerist, corporatist, fascist, violent, raping, enslaving, vampiric, racist, television-watching, vicariously-living zombie inside me. Because it is not real.
I guarantee that it is this simple: The illusion of Disconnect creates pain, projection avoids dealing with it. Voila’ – every issue requiring activism.
The problem is personal – so too, must be the solution. And I can not do it for anyone else. I can relate my story. Simply put – if I can get to this place of understanding, so can every human. I see it as inevitable, because nothing stays the same. Universal law. Change is.
I hope that helps to understand me better, but like I said in the beginning – I cut out more than half of what I typed in the beginning.
Cheers!
poetshound said
Sorry, forgot the “/” on my bold HTML tag – little help? Maybe? Sorry
SexyVegan said
Hi Jason,
Thanks for your response. I will read the material in the links you’ve provided; I’ll assume at this point that I am aware of most of the material you have pointed me towards…I am familiar with the arguments for the use of violence. Incidentally, while participating in direct action many years ago, I happened to be chained directly to Jerry Vlasak and his courage, compassion, empathy for the victims, and intelligence has always been an inspiration to me. I agree, as I’ve noted before with some of your views, but I very strongly disagree with your solution. I’ve looked at the issue of animal liberation from many angles including the use of violence and from my conclusions based on my reading of various historical and contemporary literature as well as my understanding of the world we live in today, I couldn’t disagree with you more on the use of violence as an effective means of bringing about the widespread abolition of animal exploitation. To draw conclusions on the effectiveness of violence to end industrialized animal exploitation based on comparisons with other social movements has great problems that I cannot imagine you have not considered. Anyway, I am truly grateful for your work in raising consciousness and for your tireless efforts to help the voiceless, innocent victims of a callous and perhaps deranged societal indifference to other sentient individuals.
Sincerely,
LG
Wingnut said
SexyVegan… how ya doin’? Thanks for all your interesting words all along the way. If I may ask a few side-questions and try to stay out of the way of your Poetshound query…
1. Do you believe that Earth was created by a design/designer(s) and NOT a “happenstance” situation? Another way of putting it is… do you believe a seed… contains all the information to become/grow-into a fully mature living thing… by happenstance? Or do you believe there is a “plan” and a much “bigger” situation going-on?
I THINK I know how PH will respond to your query, but I wanted to check your thoughts/beliefs on certain things… if you’d be so kind.
2. Let’s pretend “life” or “reality” is a hallucination. Not JUST a hallucination, but the truly best 5-sense-convincing hallucination that a team of non-living human “entities” could EVER build/design. Lets say it is a school… and that we “took-on” the “role” of being 5-sense humans… so that we could learn a lesson. Lets further pretend that we’re in a “hallucination” experimentation chamber where… anything that died… didn’t really “die”, but simply safely returned to the school’s lunchroom. So the killing of animals… is part of the lesson. No “soul” got hurt at all, and the general rule of this “heavenly” school is…
“Every cruel act can be labeled as ‘good’… IF it teaches souls to NOT do it anymore.”
Since no soul is ‘real-ly” being hurt because its a hallucination (not ‘just’ a hallucination, though. Every bit of a great one)… then the animals aren’t real-ly dying. The gore and atrocious morality of animal slaughtering… is part of the lesson. I’m not saying that folks shouldn’t have firey “intent” to learn the lesson and help others to learn it… but that a potential “manifest destiny” of sorts… is at work that will make sure the lesson is learned, no matter which road is traveled to get to that point.
Although there is not much “scientific” evidence for #2, there is PLENTY of evidence on the Earth… that says it COULD NOT have “happened” via happenstance. Its just too perfectly designed to be chance. A “manifest destiny” could EASILY be at work here… because… the Earth has a HOLY CRAPLOAD of miracles “happening” right in front of everyone’s eyes! In fact, everyone’s eyes are but one “OH MY GOD”-miracle of a couple quadrillion of such. Thoughts? (thanks).
There is another branch of this thought, where those who say “You create your own personal reality” hang-out. That theory says that the hallucination is designed and created by a “bigger YOU”. This is where you wake each morning, and build an entire universe and all the people and critters IN it… just for yourself to experience-within. That’s why there’s a morning grogginess. You just finished building a full blown 5-sense-fooling entire universe to do experiencing within… to “allow” you to wake-up to a reality. Its the “chamber” for today’s personal lesson plan.
Pretty heavy stuff, there… but there’s been a few slingings of the word “absurd”, so far. I can take a few more yet before needing first aid.
poetshound said
Where do you get your ideas? Personal experience? That’s where I got mine… Funny that we can come to similar understandings through individual, “unrelated” living.
Anecdotal evidence trumps scientific evidence in my book any day. “In Storytelling Lies All Truth. – My personal motto (for now).
Wingnut said
Hi PH (and others)! Boy, you ask questions as big as SV does. In general, yes, personal experiences. I’m a (Jane Roberts) Seth fan, too, and Seth/Jane writings really seem on-track for me. Reading books that sort of call my name… is part of personal experiences, right? Also, earlier in life, I did two large “askings”. Askings are akin to praying but without all the dogma. I asked to be “used” as a tool to help mankind. Semi-shortly thereafter, I was mentally “shown” the pyramid scheme called capitalism and all its disgusting characteristics… and thus I was driven by the fires in my soul… to become an anti-capitalism activist. More specifically, I became an anti-economies and anti-ownershipism activist.
The other asking I did… was asking to allow my “life” to be used by dead people to allow them to finish projects and do tasks that they did not get a chance to do while they were alive as humans. I let dead people “commandeer” my life… within the realms of allowance set forth by my personal “spirit guide”. I became a metaphorical buss/bus driver, and I haul formerly living souls around to wherever they want to “go” or to whatever they want to “see”. While I follow the instructions heard from the yells and thoughts from the riders on the/my buss/bus, “they” also paint visions on my windshield… lessons… stories, as you put it.
I’m “present-ed” voices, thoughts, ideas, visions, insight, and stories. I found it very interesting that you should mention storytelling. I’ve currently got 7 years of work into programming a new kind of multimedia chat system (Firefox extension) and its primary goal is in being “the ultimate” storytelling device… and free to all… and adjustable/programmable by all. Storytelling is sort of THE theme of my life.
Maybe we’re not so unrelated, PH or ANY of us. Many of our senses agree with each other. Jason sees the color being blue, and so do I. Ivor sees it is a tree, and so do I. There are many relationships going-on, but one needs to blow the “lie” (dust) off-of the surface of things… to notice the connections. PH, during your entire response to SV, I heard continuous ringing bells… which for me, means total agreement and not only total agreement, but you use some of the same storytelling methods that I might have used… to try to communicate “the thing”.
I’ve had a couple incidents of massive co-incidences and maybe an out of body experience or two, as well. All these “personal experiences” seem to lead to a central star, and that star shines the story of “All things are interconnected”.
I’m sort of trying to explain this stuff to other readers, here, because… PH knows exactly where I’m coming-from and going-to. But PH is a humble person, and thus leaves his/her mind open to all inbound experiences and ideas… because he/she knows that openness and curiosity is THE communication channel to/from “the big thing”. To atrophy THAT “sensor” would be to go blind and deaf all at the same time. When one keeps “an eye out” for coincidences and ironies, and keeps “an ear to the ground” for the same type of things, answers to questions come. Often, they are answers to questions that… each of us forgot that we had asked. Time and distractions play games with us/me, and it takes our minds away from questionings we had done earlier. The trick is humility, and ALWAYS ALWAYS paying attention to life and its most tiny intricate details. Answers often come from little tiny things, not from big Earth movers. While most watch the weather… sort of hoping for some major event to take the boredom from our lives, I instead watch (and listen-to the story-of) the ant, leaf, or minnow. Yes, it can be categorized in the general term of “life experience” but… I think PH and I tend to pursue experiences that are far from statistical norms. Every living thing, as well as every mountain and mole hill… has a story to tell. If one stops talking about one’s self for a few minutes, and stops accusing and blaming everything under the sun for a moment, one can listen to those stories. They contain a couple tons of answers to life’s big questions… in each one. One doesn’t need to speak the language of the sunflower. Ask it for its story, and it will “plant” it into your inner voice.
Its all very difficult to explain. Human language often doesn’t even have words created to describe it. So, yes, personal experiences is correct, and very few of them being “classic” personal experiences. I think I just did an exact repeat of PH’s response to SV, didn’t I?
Robert said
As soon as someone decides that all means are justified in obtaining justice, their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil they set out to destroy.
Warwak said
For anyone to whine about violence perpetrated by vegans, is as absurd as it gets.
Violent apathetic (not ignorant) corpse-munching sorts are the most absurd offenders when they preach to vegans about non-violence in the animal rights movement.
And of all absurdities is the posing Corpse-muncher in Chief, Barack Obama’s mirror reflecting his empty words at us about Food Safety, Education, Children, School Lunch Program, Proper Eating Habits, Telling Parents to be better Role Models, Cancer, Diabetes, Obesity, Mad Cow, Smithfield’s Swine Flu Virus, Global Warming, Factory Farming’s Pollution, Starvation/World Hunger, Violence in Society, and War.
“Yet what is far more remarkable is that out of the thousands of leading writers and researchers in the physical sciences, human sciences, and humanities over the last hundred years, virtually no one has produced a sentence on the subject! These great minds were among the most innovative and courageous of their time, willing to risk controversy and daring to offer the world many new ideas in sociology and social theory, psychology, philosophy, systems theory, science, economics, history, government, anthropology, theology, comparative religion, and spirituality. How could something so central and obvious to our lives and thinking—our treatment of animals for food—go ignored by—and invisible to—so many for so long? It’s eerie to contemplate the mountains of books, articles, essays, lectures, and documentaries produced by and about the great minds of modernity—and to realize how unmentionable this subject is. The idea that our routine violence against animals for food could be a primary driving force behind human suffering and war has managed to remain virtually completely unthinkable to this day. Even the more radical and contemporary voices have been unwilling or unable to seriously address this subject, as have virtually all the current writers and leaders in the human potential, spiritual, environmental, social justice, holistic health, and peace movements” Dr Will Tuttle
“All ancient philosophy was oriented toward the simplicity of life and taught a certain kind of modesty in one’s need. In light of this, the few philosophic vegetarians have done more for mankind than all new philosophers, and as long as philosophers do not take courage to seek out a totally changed way of life and to demonstrate it by their example, they are worth nothing.” Nietzsche
Wingnut said
Warwak, thanks for the quotes and good writings all the way, here.
Why don’t children go on field trips to slaughter houses? Why are so few kid’s videos available of “How the hamburger at the loving family barbeque came to be”? Why don’t we send the kids to the deer-petting or cow-petting farm, and then kill some of these animals right in front of them? Why don’t we show them how cows have their necks clamped in pipes and how cattle prods work? Why do we (as a society) hide cruelty and shock from our kids? Is it the same reason we hide sex from our kids?
This traditioned learning of “look away” or “blindering” is carried right up through adulthood, yes?
*shrug* I would say that humanity… grappling with the drastic change of attitude seen between the petting farm field trip and the slaughter house field trip… would teach a valuable life-long lesson.
Remember the movie called “The Yearling”… with Gregory Peck and his “gentle” child with the pet deer? They were nearly starving as a family, but they never whacked’n’stacked that deer. They DID almost kill it because it kept (naturally?) eating (attacking?) the crops, though.
Social norms. It seems that if society hides things from the kids, then that “blindering” has a tendency to continue through adult life. My brother has an interesting and possibly related attitude. He claims “If it doesn’t directly affect me, its not my problem”. “Directly” is the interesting and wobbly word, there. In the story of Robin Hood, the dead deer didn’t directly affect Prince John… up until Robin flopped it onto Prince John’s decadent dining table. It wasn’t done for the purpose of making Prince John own-up to the atrocity of animal killing, but it was shocky and “in your face”… direct affect.
Warwak said something earlier and reminded of it in this post. It was about someone intentionally ignoring something after being taught/proved. (Ignor-ance). As Warwak/someone said earlier, once taught, and then STILL going against that education, puts a person in a whole new category of disgusting.
SexyVegan said
Wingnut & Poetshound,
Thank you for your explanations. These explanations are not new to me, just a tad more elaborate than the last time I heard them.
It would be very inappropriate to divert the direction of this particular thread toward a discussion of anything other than directly related to the topic of the thread’s original statement. Therefore, I suggest that a separate thread be created (or continued) for the discussion of whatever it is you wish to call the beliefs you’ve just shared.
I will say here two quick things that come to mind but a response to my comments should (in my view) be answered in a new thread for the reason noted above. The first is: What if you are completely wrong? and the second is, the beliefs you have as I understand them through your words, result in one inevitable outcome; there’d be no rational reason for individuals to be personally accountable or responsible for their behaviors! ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING (including the round-the-clock sodomizing of every single child on the planet) would be justified as some bizarre lesson that ‘had’ to be ‘learned’.
It would be a way, way more ugly and terrifying world were more people to believe in such a view as you do if I am understanding you accurately…I am glad that more don’t hold that belief.
Wingnut said
SV – laws stopping “round-the-clock sodomizing” are in place, right? And they came from where? The hearts and minds of humans. And WHERE did the hearts and minds of humans come from? The Earth creators, yes? If a manifest destiny is in effect, that doesn’t mean things don’t matter anymore and that anarchy will reign. A manifest destiny “force” would/could actually create what many would label as “human nature” and “instinct”.
Tell you what, SV. If YOU don’t think “how the Earth came to be” is related to “how you should act and what you should DO/NOT-DO upon/in it”, then YOU go start your new thread and do your topic gestapo activities there, okay? As far as I’ve ever known, “inappropriatism” (a capitalism-only thing, btw)… is proudly allowed and encouraged in this blog. Do your topic patrolling and policing in that new thread, as talking about something being off-topic is as off-topic as it comes. Peace.
poetshound said
For me, I am not concerned about being wrong. I contribute where I am intrinsically motivated to contribute. I have the confidence of my conviction and that is enough for me.
To your second observation, we must simply agree to disagree. Though I do agree that there is one inevitable outcome (the one I stated above – Liberation), I do not agree with your assessment that my beliefs result in an absence of personal accountability. Quite the contrary has resulted in every human I have encountered with the same outlook when it is borne of experience. The intellectualisation and analysis of my message from an outside perspective belies a complete misunderstanding of what it is to BE. Your fear of rationalisation is founded in good sense in my opinion, yet the state of mind/body/soul or Being or awareness (etc.) is beyond rationalistaion, it is inexplicable and only derived of experience. I can not stress this enough: I am aware that anything can be rationalised, and the answer to that is not to create more and more moral constraints to imprison an already unhealthy tendency, it is to realise (actualise) that there is more to my being’s capacity as a human than rationale. Therefore, I do not seek to rationalise anything with my perspective, I seek to share my Sense.
I believe my life is all-inclusive and to break down my so-called individual parts is contrary to reality. Therefore, my core of beliefs is inseparable from any discussion I have about any subject. I will give the same information no matter what the thread or topic. If I have something to write about the subject, it comes from my heart and there lies my core of beliefs – what else am I/do I have/can I offer?
poetshound said
-edit *belies an understanding
sorry